Government Operations Committee on Nov. 25th, 2010

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Yes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I want to talk about the parliamentary precinct. I see $754,000 for an east tunnel linkage to the central plant. That's all well and good. But the Auditor General, the Speaker, and a blue ribbon commission that has commented on the renovations of the parliamentary precinct have all been calling for taking it out of the hands of Public Works altogether and putting it back in the hands of Parliament. We're only tenants in our own building. They all say that it's such a complex arrangement to oversee the parliamentary precinct, that there are too many cooks in the kitchen, and that we'd be better off with one umbrella group overseeing the parliamentary precinct and taking it out of the hands of Public Works.

Would you care to comment on that? I'd like to hear about your ability to operate with so many people in the parliamentary precinct.

[John McBain]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chair, I will note that I am the assistant deputy minister for real property. My colleague Pierre-Marc Mongeau is the ADM for the parliamentary precinct.

On this specific item, I know that our deputy minister, François Guimont, appeared before this committee, did speak in response to the Auditor General's recommendations, and has tasked a senior assistant deputy minister, Yvette Aloïsi, to develop the governance options directly in response to those recommendations. I would also note that the Auditor General did observe that when we are given a mandate to deliver projects for the parliamentary precinct, we do that exceedingly well.

I do note your observation that there is a myriad of tenants and players involved in this.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Okay, thank you.

I have just one closing comment. The reason I raise it is it seems to cost ten times as much to do anything in the parliamentary precinct as it does in the real world, and we're here talking about money.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thanks, Mr. Martin; your time has expired.

Ms. Coady, for five minutes.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to follow through on some of the questions I asked earlier, but I want to make a comment first. We talked a little bit earlier. One of the witnesses raised the whole issue of news releases and that's where some of the details of some of the cost savings are embedded. I noted yesterday that Treasury Board put out a news release and the heading said “Harper Government Ensuring Respect for Taxpayer Dollars”. It's a little unusual, if I may make this point, to indicate the Harper government. It's a little unusual; usually it's “government” that is listed. I would just make that comment.

My questions go back to the whole issue I raised earlier about the operating budget freeze and the savings attributed to that. Some of those savings I know you've indicated, and they are in the supplementary estimates, but specifically I'm going to ask each of you again to answer this. What have your departments and agencies done to ensure savings, to achieve these savings that are required under the budget freeze? What impacts are on the existing departmental operations, and how is it affected? On the corporate risks, the management accountability framework, for example, are the savings one time or ongoing? Will Parliament be presented with the details of how you're going to achieve the budget 2010 savings target?

I'll just ask each of you to run through those, if you would be so kind. Thank you.

[Christine Walker]

Thank you for your question.

In terms of the cost containment measures, one of the key elements in containing the costs in the public service is actually containing the payroll costs. We have just recently negotiated the collective agreements so that we can contain the payroll costs over the next three years.

Secondly, in terms of travel, we actually have saved money on travel. In 2008-09, between Treasury Board and the Canada Public Service Agency, we had spent $760,000 on travel. In 2009-10, the Canada Public Service Agency was merged with Treasury Board, and the total spending for the Treasury Board, which included the CPSA at that time, was $560,000, a 27% decrease. In addition, for the travel and hospitality, we have increased our due diligence processes. For all of our hospitality, we have a hospitality checklist that basically asks all the questions that are now in the travel directive. Can we use another location? Can we use video conferencing? Every request for hospitality uses that checklist.

In terms of cost containment---your question about sustainability over multiple years--we are taking a look at a three-year plan for the Treasury Board Secretariat, looking at what the impact of those cost containment measures are, looking at what the impact of those cost containment measures would be on any programs, and making sure that--

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Will you be submitting that to this committee or to Parliament? Or how will we be able to determine the details of those operating budget cost containment points?

[Christine Walker]

In the operating budget for the cost containment we have to absorb our salaries, and that's what we will be doing.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Yes, you went through the list. You said you're also looking at other means and mechanisms. Will Parliament or this committee be presented with details regarding the remaining operating budget reductions?

[Christine Walker]

What I was referring to was cost containment measures within the Treasury Board Secretariat as a department, not the government as a whole.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

I would like to ask another department, if I may.

[Alex Lakroni]

Thank you for the question.

From Public Works' perspective, the focus will remain on delivering core activities, while focusing on priority-setting and containing the growth to a reasonable level. We know that the budget freeze is about generating efficiencies, and not necessarily a hiring freeze. So for Public Works we took a few measures.

I'm going to start with travel management, travel hospitality, and conference management. Two years ago the total spending in those categories was $35.9 million. Last year we achieved a reduction of about 34%. The expenditures were a little less than $24 million. On hospitality alone, the reduction was 50%, so we went from $453,000 to $233,000.

As the CFO, I monitor those expenditures on a monthly basis and report to the deputy management team.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Lakroni.

Madam Coady, you are out of time.

Mr. Vincent, you have five minutes.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome. Appearing here every year in order to answer our questions is a necessary evil. That goes without saying.

I would like to ask you a question.

When you go to bed at night do you turn off the lights and turn down the heating for the night? Yes?

When I'm staying at the Lac-Leamy Hilton Hotel and I open up the drapes in the evening, I can see that the government buildings are lit up from top to bottom, on every floor. I am also certain that the heating is not turned down.

Has no one ever thought that we should, at one point, turn off these lights? That may generate some savings for us. I do understand that you may have some concerns about this, given that, when we were studying other files, we saw that changing a switch cost $1,000, and, in order to change a plant, it cost $2,000. I would imagine that you fear exorbitant costs. It seems to me, however, that turning off the lights would be a first step.

What do you think?

[John McBain]

Thank you for the question.

I can tell you that most of the buildings you're looking at in the federal government inventory are part of our portfolio, because they're office buildings in this area.The standard operating procedure is that at six o'clock the ventilation shuts down. I can tell you that because I know exactly when it goes off in my office.

If a department has an operational requirement for longer needs, they contract that with us. For example, some departments run until eight o'clock, depending on their programs and their coverage of the country. By nature, the lights and the HVAC don't shut off completely, but they go down to a lower cycle. We change that during the year, depending on the energy costs required to bring them back up.

If someone is on the floor working, the floor lights stay on or can be switched on manually by the people who stay on the floor.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

At 11:00 p.m., hardly anyone is left in the building, and the lights are on everywhere. I do not mind having a night light, but this one lights up half of the city. We should give this serious thought. We could save a bit of money. No one, except the government, leaves the lights on all night. Let me give you a good suggestion: we must check into this. We will bring this up again next year to see where we are. I suppose that this will be a pilot project for the next 10 years.

With regard to the $138.6 million estimates, 137 million will be spent on the increased costs brought about by the signing of the collective agreements with public servants. I think that the collective agreement was not signed recently, it was not signed last week. Months have gone by, perhaps a whole year. It seems to me that you should have thought of this when you made the estimates. How come nobody could see in advance that $137 million in wages would have to be added?

Normally, we prepare an annual budget. To do this, we look at the previous year's budget, and we see what is new for the coming year. If there are salary increases, we ask for a supplementary estimate. This is how we proceed. Nevertheless, year in and year out, people go through all kinds of amazing adventures to obtain new budgets.

Could you explain to us how this budget is managed? Otherwise, we can say that it is an open buffet, if we are short of money, we will come back before this necessary evil, namely the committee, and will spend an hour of torture with the committee members. Afterward, we will get what we asked for and we will carry on. How do you go about estimating your budgets at the beginning of each year?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 15 seconds or less.

[Marilyn MacPherson]

Perhaps I will take a stab at this.

When we prepare our main estimates for the upcoming year, for example for 2010-11, they're done the fall before. So we don't always have all the information on collective agreements. In the past we have had to use the supplementary estimates to augment them.

In my case, for example, we came in last year with a certain amount of money included for collective agreements. That also included a part for the new year. Subsequent to that there was a budget decision that we would not be funded for 2010-11, so a calculation was done by Treasury Board. It was applied to all departments, and our collective agreement amount was actually reduced. So you'll see a reduction of $0.7 million.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Vincent, your time is up.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Chair, this is not a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, there is no time left for questions.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Were wages not frozen by the last collective agreement?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam MacPherson. Sorry to run the clock.

Mr. Calkins, you have five minutes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'm just going to follow up on what Mr. Vincent was questioning.

I just assumed that when the lights were on in a building somebody was cleaning, or something like that. I would be very saddened to know they were vacuuming in the dark. There are some significant risks associated with that. But I certainly appreciate all the public servants who stay.

I used to work at a college, and when the ventilation went off I'd be there burning the midnight oil. I certainly want to extend my thanks and appreciation to those public servants who are working hard beyond the normal hours of operation in service to their country. So I have a bit of a different approach from what some others around this table might have, but I agree that wherever cost savings can be found, taxpayers would appreciate it.

My first line of questioning is on the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. On the whole budgetary process here, it's like the budget is asking permission and the estimates are asking for forgiveness. It seems to be the way these things go. But I understand that it's impossible to have a crystal ball at budget time.

In Indian Affairs and Northern Development there was a requested authorization for $308 million for specific land claims. Why is it $308 million? Is that a typical number we would see on an ongoing basis? Based on the ramped up amount of work, should this be added in? Are we going to see three hundred and some million dollars next year? How much did we see last year relative to these estimates?