Evidence of meeting #4 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Well, the main estimates basically put the numbers on the table, so when Parliament votes on them, they will--
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
There is no other direction, except, if I may, to say there are no restrictions on hiring--
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
But that is important.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
And the collective bargaining and the wages negotiated within that are to be paid according to what has been negotiated within the envelope.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
No, I understood that fully. I guess the question for many of us is in regard to the government saying, “Here's the number, so go do it.” Each department has different responsibilities. If each department is treated equally in terms of finding the savings, there are concerns about how that affects the public, because every public servant doesn't give the same measure of service to the public.
I want to ask you a little bit about the question that was posed by my colleague, Monsieur Nadeau, regarding the hiring of temporary workers and those who come in to fill a need quickly. You mentioned the program the government had put out there that had to get people hired immediately to get going. I've been very concerned about this from the perspective of the growth in the temporary help agencies.
Department numbers going back a number of years were given to me and show spending on this going from over $100 million to over $300 million. The concern I have is that Treasury Board guidelines aren't actually always being followed. So I guess this is my question: how do we monitor departments? This is a trend. It didn't start with this government and it hasn't been in just the last couple of years.
The trend is that departments and managers go out and hire people, not just as in the example you gave in terms of the government's economic stimulus and not just when there was a passport bulge. They are hiring people who are what I would consider long-term employment candidates.
I'm just questioning what probes Treasury Board does to make sure that managers are following the guidelines and that they're making sure the guidelines are followed, because I have instances where they're not. This will be a concern, of course, as we go ahead, because departments are being told, “Find savings and here's the amount.” Maybe they make quick decisions and then they find out that they need to continue to provide the services. So they've not filled positions, they go out and hire people temporarily, and the costs actually increase over the long run. Something's got to give.
I'm questioning a bit about how we ensure that the guidelines are being followed by Treasury Board when it comes to temporary help.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
We have a couple of elements there. In terms of the number of term positions, if I can put it this way, for people who come in for a defined time period, we do have some very strict rules that we monitor and that departments monitor as well. If someone has been in a term position for three years or more, they become an indeterminate, except in certain circumstances. We still abide by that, obviously. The bargaining agents are very effective at monitoring that as well, and so do we.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
But on hiring, when a manager hires a person for a temporary job, they have to actually follow the guidelines, and I have cases where people aren't. I'm wondering what oversight there is for that.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
If there is an instance that you have identified, perhaps through the committee you could let us know or inform us.
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
We do monitor. The individual departments monitor and the bargaining agents do as well. If there are circumstances where the rules are not followed, we would appreciate, perhaps through the chair, being informed of that.
The other element is in terms of other types of casual employment, if I can put it that way. The Public Service Commission also reports on an annual basis on the types of employment and the nature of employment.
She reports to Parliament on that--
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
In fact, she has a fairly effective way of bringing those issues forward and of auditing, if I can put it that way, departments and very closely monitoring those issues.
NDP
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Mr. Dewar.
We will send you an e-mail to remind you to bring that.
We'll go to the next--
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Excuse me, Madam Chair. It was actually if the member had--
Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
We'll now go to the next round.
Oh, we can't even go to the next round. It's 5:15 and we have actually come to the end of our time. We are going to do committee business--
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
If you look at your agenda, you'll see we have committee business to discuss.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Madam Chair, with your permission, on behalf of all my colleagues, I would like to thank the people who were with us this afternoon, even if there was a lot of noise during our meeting. I would like to thank them for having been kind enough to answer all our questions.
Thank you.
