Government Operations Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, there still seems to be some confusion on this point. My friend keeps saying “the number that we require”. We're not requiring people to leave. We simply reported that over the last two to three years we have seen an attrition rate of over 11,000 people. We don't require it; we don't demand it; we don't push people out the door. We simply said there will be over 11,000. That's not a number.... I don't know; maybe this is an example, when you have something as misleading as you have from the PBO, of a case in which members would have some confusion over this.

Let me be clear on it: we have never, ever required that any number of people leave. We have never required that over 11,000.... We simply stated that over 11,000 have left, and our prediction is that this year it will probably be over 11,000. We have not required it. It is up to each department to settle and to manage.

I would ask my friend—she talked about the coast guard—whether she has received a number from the coast guard saying how many people they're going to have next year.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

That is the problem, Mr. Chair. That is the problem, indeed--that this committee is having a gross number of challenges trying to get some information that will allow us to make some determinants on the operability of this budget freeze and the impact it's going to have on Canadians.

I'm going to move on to another question--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Okay, so you have not received anything, a number, from.... I just want to clarify that.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

--so that we can ask some good questions about the $300 million target that this government has for this year.

In this particular year, this government has a target of a $300 million reduction. We do know, for example...and have seen the $180 million reflected in the estimates.

I'll give a hat tip to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who in his November report gave us the 51 reductions that are occurring, the efficiencies that are occurring. I think that gave clarity to this issue.

First of all, I'd like to ask about the $120 million still outstanding to be saved.

To the President of the Treasury Board, are you going to achieve the reduction that you indicated this year, the $300 million? If so, will that $120 million be reflected in supplementary (C), and could you tell us where those savings are coming from, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, Madam Coady has run overtime. Those are important questions, and possibly over the course of the morning you could work your answers into it.

I'm going to turn now to Madame Bourgeois, for eight minutes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister Day, and thank you for being here.

During your presentation, you seemed to be on the defensive as far as the Parliamentary Budget Officer was concerned. I was surprised by how often you referred to him in your remarks.

Does that mean you do not put much stock in the work of the Parliamentary Budget Officer?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I would say it was one person's point of view that I was on the defensive. I would also say that some people probably think I was optimistic today, given the figures I mentioned, which, in my opinion, will help us to reach our goal of eliminating the deficit. Furthermore, I am absolutely convinced that some of the figures released by the gentleman you referred to show that he is wrong.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Would you not say, Mr. Minister, that you would have greater confidence in the Parliamentary Budget Officer's work and that he could do a much better job that was more to your liking if he had access to the numbers he was asking for?

Twice we introduced a motion to help the Parliamentary Budget Officer obtain those figures. He is never able to gain access to them. Why is that?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Once again, with all due respect, I would disagree with you, because I have here an example of some figures that we sent to Mr. Page, in addition to other documents of that nature, further to this committee's request. You asked for them. I am wondering whether you looked at them. There were many, and they were complex, but we did provide the figures.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

We did not receive them, Mr. Minister.

That being said, Mr. Minister, according to what you said, departments would be required to reallocate money from the remainder of their operating budgets to fund scheduled wage increases for 2010-2011 and those to be negotiated for 2011-2013.

I find it a bit villainous to blame the need for budget cuts on the wage increases of civil servants.

I would like you to explain where departments could reallocate money in their operating budgets. Could you give me an example?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

First of all, it is important to note that we reached an agreement with the largest civil servants union for this year and upcoming years, and that a bill froze, as you say, wage increases, limiting them to 1.5%....

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Where will the money come from?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Of course, as you mentioned, we said that departments had to find the money for the increases in their operating budgets. We did not say they had to freeze their budgets, but they have to find the money for the increases.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Yes, but where? Give me an example.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It is not unusual for a government to say to its departments that they must find money to cover their expenditures.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I agree with you there, Mr. Minister. It is not at all unusual to cut spending. But where, Mr. Minister? You said earlier there were plans. I'll make you a plan.

First of all, what you gave us was not a plan; it was not a real strategy. It was simply an overview to say where we are heading, but it was not a plan.

Second of all, if you have seen the plans, tell me, Mr. Minister, where will departments cut their spending to achieve the budget envelope freeze?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It is important to remember two things here, Ms. Bourgeois. As your colleague, I think you can say you do not agree with our plan.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

There is no plan. We have not seen one, it does not exist, Mr. Minister.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You can be opposed to a plan, but that does not mean there isn't one.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Which plan? Where is it?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You disagree with the plan. There is a difference here. For instance, in 2005, the Liberal government cut spending in a few areas. In 1995, the Liberals made a lot of cuts, as you know.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

There was no plan then, either.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Yes, they made cuts. Now, it is different with us. We told the departments that we were not going to provide the money for the wages. They have to figure out how to manage their budget accordingly; it is for them to decide. Every department posts on its Web site its expenditures, its plans and the number of employees it has. The information is there. But we are not making the cuts; we are simply saying they have to manage their budgets.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In that case, Mr. Minister, were you made aware of the effects of the budget freeze? Were you told what impact it would have? Were you made aware of that?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The departments have made proposals. They have said they can create a program, deliver that program, cut their spending. All departmental spending is there for the Auditor General to see, as are all the positions. It is right there.