Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

But they must have a plan. They have a plan to reduce this deficit. You guys talk amongst yourselves. I mean, surely, if somebody tells you.... You're the biggest and fattest and juiciest plum on the tree. HRSD is the low-hanging fruit. That's the one they always target when they need a big fix of big dough real fast.

[Ian Shugart]

Chair, I think I understand what Mr. Martin is asking me, and I can only say two or three things. First, I'm very grateful that I'm not accountable for explaining the entire fiscal framework of the federal government. I can only speak to the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development.

Second, our resources are overwhelmingly for the cost of the statutory programs, over which I and my colleagues exercise no discretion whatsoever, and indeed, over which the cabinet exercises no discretion that doesn't have to come to Parliament and be voted on in terms of the benefit levels.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

You have made that clear.

[Ian Shugart]

We're actually talking about the operating budget and—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

But do you know more than you're telling us? Do you know more than you're telling us about the plan? Just say yes or no, because this is so heavily sanitized that it's kind of like gobbledygook really. It's the base level of information. I got more information from what our researchers did, really, about how things are....

I think there's no fat to be trimmed in your department, in your operational budget, because frankly, in economic downturns your department should be growing, because there are more basic needs to be met by the basic needs social services you provide under your department. I wouldn't expect you to be able to answer the President of the Treasury Board and say that you can cut fat in your department. That fat was cut back in program review during the 1990s. I think you'd be down to the meat and the bones if you did any more cutting.

In the absence of any evidence of a plan, we have to conclude that there is no plan to balance the books, because deputy minister after deputy minister after deputy minister comes before this committee and all they talk about is attrition—“we're going to save a bit of money if some attrition takes place”—and it's all really tiny numbers, like 750 people out of 27,000.

I don't want you to go slashing the public service, but it seems to be the only idea that's been brought forward. I mean, there's just a paucity of creativity in the federal government. Either it has a master plan and it won't tell the public because it doesn't want to go into a federal election announcing that it's going to have to be ruthless, or it has no idea how to get out of the $57 billion deficit other than to cross its fingers and wait.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Have you read the estimates?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, but nobody believes your estimates.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That intervention was not helpful. Please, we have witnesses, and in the event that you wish to have Mr. Warkentin as a witness, I'm sure the committee could call him.

Mr. Shugart.

[Ian Shugart]

On the point of the recession being the time to do more, my point, and the information provided with respect to the ramping up and then the ramping down of employees, was precisely for that purpose of responding.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It's just offloaded to MPs' offices, because, as Mr. Vincent says, our offices are busy, busy, busy right now with people being basically—

[Ian Shugart]

Yes. We work constantly with members' offices, I think very fruitfully, to manage constituents' concerns with Service Canada. But in fact we—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I wouldn't be too quick to downsize.

[Ian Shugart]

In fact, we recruited 3,000 temporary employees to manage the increased workload in EI. They were fully occupied. As we have seen the level of claims decline, those folks have been removed from the roles gradually and appropriately in keeping with the workload decline.

The impact of the operating budget, the operating freeze, has been in the order of $4 million. We have flexibility, including in part the normal attrition from our department, and we will use that flexibility appropriately. We will manage within our overall reference levels to achieve the limits that Parliament has put on us.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

With all due respect, it really is peanuts, Mr. Deputy Minister, through no fault of your own.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Colleagues, we started late. I am proposing that we go to 12:05 with these witnesses and then call the next witnesses, and that we end with those witnesses at 12:45. I hope that's acceptable.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

All the witnesses will be at the same time then.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We will run through the normal order until we get to five after—

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Could we reduce this round to three minutes so that everybody gets a—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Only on the consent of colleagues.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Is there consent for three minutes for everyone?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Three minutes for each part. I have 10 minutes, so it's only going to be the Conservatives, the Liberals, and the Bloc.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Let's try to work it in. Let's do two and a half, and then Pat can get a final question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm running until five after. Please give me a consensus here.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Let's do two and a half minutes and everyone gets a chance.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Do we have consent, chaque partie pour two and a half minutes?