Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Shugart, continue with your response.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I don't know why they don't want us to hear the answer to the question. I'm sure it won't take very long.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

For the time being, I'm going to allow this question to go forward.

Mr. Shugart.

[Ian Shugart]

All I can say, Chair, is I have always endeavoured to make my advice and recommendations to my ministers clear. I've been blessed with ministers whose responses have been clear in their reaction to my advice.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I guess I'll settle for that as an answer.

Last week officials from Industry Canada told us that the impact of the government's restraint measures would be $3 million this year and $4.6 million in 2011-12 for their department.

What are the numbers for your department in this regard?

[Ian Shugart]

The impact of the operating freeze, Chair, for Human Resources and Skills Development Canada is $4.1 million in the next fiscal year, 2011-12, and $5.2 million in 2012-13. That's the impact of the operating freeze.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

A related question is this. Will you see staff reductions as a result of the government's stimulus plan winding down? If so, how many?

[Ian Shugart]

Yes. We anticipate that in the order of the 3,000 employees we brought in on a temporary basis to assist with the workload increase relative to employment insurance.... We anticipated from the outset that, following the recovery, those staff resources would not be required, so we took advantage, quite consciously, of the temporary nature of hiring. They will indeed be brought down--

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

So in the range of 3,000?

[Ian Shugart]

Yes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I'm sorry to interrupt--

[Ian Shugart]

No, no. I understand.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

--but I only have so long, as you can understand.

How much do you foresee you will save in your budget from that change?

[Ian Shugart]

I don't know the actual number that translates into, but I could help, Chair, if I were to add that we do see normal attrition in retirement going on in the department. Those were the numbers that I referred to in my opening comments: in the order of 950 who will retire and then another 750 who will leave the department's rolls for a variety of reasons. I would make the distinction between that and the EAP influx.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I'll get to that. I want to talk about that with regard to which or how many of those positions get replaced.

But in terms of the staff reductions from the stimulus plan winding down, what other reductions beyond those are you planning? What other staffing areas will not be continuing?

[Ian Shugart]

Those are the major ones. In any given year we may have reductions associated with the sunsetting of programs, for example, that are only financed for a finite period. If those programs end, we would potentially reduce our FTE count as a result of that.

Also, through fairly complicated formulae, we attribute to what we call our enabling services, such as finance and human resources and so on--administrative overhead--numbers of FTEs that are associated with major program initiatives. There can be some reduction in those as well, but the major impact is the 3,000 that we've referred to.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

You've spoken of the attrition numbers that you expect this year. Does that reflect your average annual attrition rate at the department? Has this rate changed much over the past few years?

[Ian Shugart]

It would go up and down somewhat, but it would be fairly typical over the last several years. If anything, I think we would anticipate it growing marginally as the demographic bulge in the public service works its way through.

Frankly, this is one of the concerns that all of us have as managers in the public service: that we balance that with the need to retain and recruit fresh blood into the institution. But we take that into account, and something that we've been doing much better at in recent times, and that now, as we head into this fiscal climate, we'll have to get better and better at, is forecasting what the attrition rate is so that we can plan appropriately at the other end. But it has been relatively stable, as a trend.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Thank you, Mr. Shugart.

Ms. Bourgeois, you have eight minutes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would simply like to clarify that I am going to share my time with my colleague, Mr. Vincent.

Mr. Shugart, ladies and gentlemen, good morning and welcome.

First, I would like to congratulate you. It doesn't happen very often, but I believe it's important to note that, out of 10 departments, you are the only one to have given the Parliamentary Budget Officer a sort of plan or integrated approach that describes what you are going to do. It's entirely in your favour. It allows us, as parliamentarians, to observe the seriousness with which you are considering the freeze on budget envelopes. As a result, it makes us choose our questions carefully. Now that your plan has been presented, we must understand it. I am no doubt going to ask the same type of questions as my colleague. Please don't get upset with me. We are having a little difficulty finding our way through this management of the freeze on budgets.

Our researcher contrasted the estimates for 2010-2011 with the estimates for 2009-2010. I realize that there has been an increase in net expenditures. In the context of a freeze, how can there be such increases? Can you explain that to me? There are millions of dollars in increases in staff, an increase in transport and communications, professional and special services and transfer payments. I have difficulty understanding it.

[Ian Shugart]

First, Mr. Chair, I accept the honourable member's congratulations and thank her for them.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

It's well deserved. Bravo. You are the only ones we are managing to keep up with.

[Ian Shugart]

But I would like to point out that, as a department, we have been a little lucky. While we were preparing, during that period, we were able to spend a lot of time on improving our services. That approach required that we get ready by refining our systems, and our procedures for forecasting, planning and implementing technologies.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

It was planned. In other words, you have a vision. You have seen what is coming.

[Ian Shugart]

Exactly. For us, this specific mission has had very useful results in this context.

I would also like to clarify that the figures we are discussing concern the operating expenses budget. They do not include all the financial resources that we have been allocated, including the transfers, the amounts transferred to individuals and so on. Perhaps Mr. Tsang would like to add something.