Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2011

[Maria Barrados]

I do not want more power to denounce any practices. In my view, it is more important to establish a system that gives parliamentarians and Canadians assurance that all appointments are based solely on merit, not partisanship. That is key.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

What would you recommend to ensure that these appointments are based solely on merit and not partisan politics?

[Maria Barrados]

England's and Australia's public service commissions are responsible not just for public servants, but also for the senior officials to whom those public servants report. I am not saying that is necessarily the solution. We could set up a commission dedicated to public appointments, as set out in the 2006 act. We have options, but I think the organization responsible for this has to enjoy more independence.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Vincent.

We're going to move over to Mr. Holder for five minutes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

May I be allowed to carry on with some of my questions to the president and her colleagues? Earlier a question was asked by a member opposite about merit-based, non-partisan appointments and whether you had noticed any non-merit-based appointments.

I would not put words in your mouth, Ms. Barrados, but I think you were thoughtfully political in your response when you indicated there was a perception about the question about whether appointments were merit-based or not. I thought I heard you say you reference sources such as what we all hear through the House of Commons and what we hear from the media. Those are two of my most credible sources, I must admit, when I look for truth. It's like truth in advertising, sometimes. That might not surprise you.

I'd like to carry on with some of the.... Ms. Barrados, will this be your final report to this committee, or will you be back? I just want to clarify.

[Maria Barrados]

That's a difficult question, because if this committee continues to sit, you could invite me back and I could be back. If you're taking a break, I may not be back. I could not come back.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I appreciate the point. We could make it unanimous among all members of the House that there be no break over the next several weeks and we would certainly be delighted to have you and your colleagues back. Could I get unanimous consent on that?

[An hon. member]

You could defer to Mr. Martin.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Impossible.

[Maria Barrados]

This commission has me and two part-time members. Our terms are ending May19. An appointment process is to be in place, but progress has not been as rapid as I would like.

One of my recommendations in the report is that the commission have more of a responsibility in making recommendations on new members of the commission, because we are in the unfortunate situation of having the whole commission ending on May 17. We really should have done more in terms of renewal and getting new people on the commission. They're seven-year terms; they're quite long enough.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you for that.

You indicated in your 2009-10 report that there's an increase in the use of short-term hires. You referenced that as an area of progress. I was intrigued by that comment. Could you expand on that for my understanding, please?

[Maria Barrados]

There's nothing wrong with short-term hires, as long as they're used for short-term purposes. It's the same with temporary help or with contractors, if they're truly used for those purposes. My concern has always been that this is a way to enter into the permanent public service. If you enter into the permanent public service that way, you may not really be getting the best candidates or the candidates who have the representivity that you would like to see.

The progress that has been made--and this is good progress--is that the number of people who have come directly into the public service without going the route of term employment or casual employment has gone up significantly. I'm very pleased about that.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

You indicate in your report that the percentage of permanent hires with no prior experience had gone up from, I think, 15.9% to more than 37%. I believe you viewed that as a very positive thing. Why would you say that, if they have no prior background in public service? You see that as a positive. Why is that?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, I do see that as a positive, because public service jobs are very attractive. In a few disciplines we have problems getting large numbers, but by and large many Canadians want to come and work in the public service. It's an interesting job, it's a very varied job, and you have lots of opportunities, so we have a lot of young people in particular who want to come into the public service.

I feel that if you have so many people who want to come into the public service, we really do have to be very vigilant that we are fair and provide equal access to all those young people. Anyone who wants to come into the public service should have a fair chance, regardless of where they live in the country and regardless of whom they know.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

What about the process of ensuring a balanced public service with an appropriate proportion of visible minorities? What are your thoughts on that?

[Maria Barrados]

This is another area where we've done very well. When I started at the Public Service Commission, we were not doing that well in terms of the number of visible minorities we were hiring at the public service. We've never gone for quotas in Canada. We've always said that we want to target and we want to improve the representivity.

We had gone from something like 8% or 9% as the percentage of visible minorities coming into the public service to the point that 21% of the advertised jobs are now taken by visible minorities. I think it's great progress.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Madam Ratansi is next.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Deputy Opposition Whip]

Thank you very much, and thank you for being here.

I'm going through your report and I have a few clarification questions. The Public Service Commission is mostly concerned with public service appointments at the the deputy minister and downward levels, right?

[Maria Barrados]

It's assistant deputy minister and down.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It's not deputy ministers?

[Maria Barrados]

It's not deputy ministers.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay, fine.

Questions have been going around asking about the clearer demarcation between the political aspect and the independent aspect, and we have prided ourselves, I believe, over a number of years for having this clear demarcation so that the public service is not politicized but is loyal to the master, whichever government it is. Then you responded that we have done pretty well.

However, in 4.19 and 4.20 you were talking about areas in which this can be circumvented because people can come in through the temporary assignment workforce. I would like clarification as to how you can have a guarantee that we are doing better when there are other ways that you don't have control of through which you can hire consultants and contingency workers. Am I correct?

[Maria Barrados]

That's right.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Could you help me out there? Then I have three quick questions.