Evidence of meeting #6 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was management.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
If there is a shortage of personnel, would the freeze not be harmful to the public servants who are already in position?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think that many Canadians are very interested in working for the public service. The President of the Public Service Commission said that more than a million people applied for jobs in the public service.
It would have been the year before last, in the year of recent record. So there is a lot of interest in working for the public service. I don't think that's our issue. For the future we need to determine what are the jobs we want done in the future public service and how are we to recruit for our future. We need to continue recruiting, as I mentioned, and to recruit the right people to position us well for the future.
Liberal
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for coming this afternoon. We appreciate your testimony.
Today we're trying to get a handle on a number of things, and a number of different lines of questioning have been undertaken.
My line of questioning will relate to the civil service, the demographics, and possibly the challenges we might see.
We have heard that 3.3% of the civil service retired this past year. Is that the correct number?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, that's my understanding.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
In addition to the 3.3%, I know we've heard testimony at this committee in the past about the movement of people within the civil service, the people who are not necessarily leaving the civil service but are moving around in the civil service. I wonder if you have a statistic on how many people have moved within the civil service this year, or have changed jobs.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
We have various data on people who have changed jobs. To some extent we have broken it down by occupational groups. So it's not a simple answer. If I could commit to getting it to the committee, I'd—
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I'd appreciate that. I think we've heard testimony in this committee before that it was somewhere around 40%, though that may be a simplistic statistic that doesn't paint the whole picture for us. So if you could highlight anything relating to that, it would be helpful.
Regarding the civil service being ahead of the private sector as it relates to older employees and attrition, my concern is that as the private sector enters this time of increased retirement there is going to be additional pressure on the public service, because the private sector is going to recruit from the public service, which has some of the best and brightest in the country. Is that something that you've identified as a concern, and has there been any kind of plan in place to address it?
I ask because what we've seen in provinces or regions where there have been high employment rates, especially over the last five years, is the poaching of government employees. I come from the province of Alberta, where we've often seen our government employees being poached or recruited from their positions to the private sector. As we see this coming in a wholesale fashion across the country with the demographic shift within the private sector, I'm wondering if there is a plan in place to address this concern.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thanks for the question.
It's something that we're always generally concerned about in considering recruitment and retention of public service employees. The demographic data, as I mentioned, suggest that people, especially the older half of the workforce, aren't leaving in large numbers, except for retirement right now. So in reality, the data do not suggest we have a problem with that segment.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
On that, and just branching out from it, what is the average age of a civil servant who is leaving the public sector? When they retire, what's the average age? Do you have that number?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
It's between 55 years and 60 years. I'd like to be able to give the correct figure now, but my colleague and I think it's around 57 years of age.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Does anybody do any exit surveys to find out if in fact these folks are leaving to full-time retirement, or if they're going into other jobs in the private sector?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
We're not tracking that now.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Excuse me; we certainly do exit interviews with all of our deputy ministers who leave the public service. That's a recent innovation. Mainly, it's not to talk about their future so much as their past, the experiences they've had, and what we can learn from that.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I don't know if this falls within your purview, and I apologize if it doesn't, but I'm wondering, as we put plans in place, if there's any effort to streamline redundant or non-core services in the work civil servants are doing. In cases of possibly redundant services or services that could be provided by other departments or other people within other departments, such as payroll or non-core services of that type, is there any effort to consolidate those types of non-core services to more efficiently address those non-core services within the civil service?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
We're looking at efficiencies all the time. The pay modernization project is one such project that should bring enormous efficiencies in the future. We're also doing modernization of our pension delivery system in terms of the basic information technology that goes behind it.
In addition, we've got some really path-breaking work when it comes to basic HR business processes. A concern in the past has been that departments go at their internal systems alone, independently of one another, which can be a costly way to do things. What's quite exciting about the project that's under way is that departments have collaborated and have decided on a common business process governing HR. They have further design work to do, but it will become the foundation, let's say, for a streamlined, efficient, and, I think, hugely cost-effective way of proceeding on HR.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, I feel I would be remiss if I didn't mention what was announced in the Speech from the Throne and the budget, which is the review of administrative services. The government recently announced a deputy minister who will be in charge of that review. It will look at all internal services for exactly what you were talking about: to avoid duplication, reduce overhead costs, and find efficiencies. I wanted to be sure you were aware of that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you.
Madam Meredith, you made a commitment to provide to Mr. Warkentin the information on turnover in the public sector and the spread between people coming in and leaving, so that we know what the attrition is, who is being hired, and where the gap is.
Thank you.
We'll now go to Madam Hall Findlay for five minutes.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
Madam Chair, I may end up splitting time with my colleague just because my questions are fairly short, I think.
Ms. Meredith, I'm a little concerned about a disconnect that we're hearing. We're being told that next year we're going to have across-the-board departmental freezes. Last week we had representation from Treasury Board. When we asked about details, we were told, “Well, we haven't had any direction.” It is a bit troubling when a government announces a significant thing like across-the-board departmental freezes, and then there's no direction.
Can I rather bluntly ask you if you were consulted before the announcement was made that there would be significant freezes across all departments?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can simply report, Madam Chair, that those freezes were made.
Liberal
Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON
No, no; my question was were you consulted before the freezes were announced?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Clearly, before any budget, there is consultation across the board in government.