Government Operations Committee on March 29th, 2010

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I am glad to see that there are programs like the mentoring program that make it possible to preserve this expertise.

Are there any young retirees who asked to work on a part-time basis, three days a week, for instance? Could we give satisfaction to these people who would like to stay in the public service, but on a part-time basis, so as to have a certain degree of freedom?

[Daphne Meredith]

Madam Chair, we do have provisions for those who are retired to return as casual employees. There are various avenues for them to contribute post-retirement. One is as casual employees, another would be as term employees, or another would be through contract arrangements.

There are certain guidelines around what can be done. For example, for them to return as casual employees, there is a limit of 90 days in any department in which they would work. There are other norms and rules around how they're engaged. But there are avenues for them to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Monsieur Nadeau for cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

When public servants retire, are there agreements concluded before their departure, to draw up a contract with the government within the ministry in which they work, so that then they can continue working on contract?

[Daphne Meredith]

They would not do that. I'd have to look at the exact provisions, but I'm fairly sure there are provisions against them staying on as contract employees. They wouldn't be able to enter into those arrangements pre-retirement. In fact, there's a period during which... They're not able to do that.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Excuse me, but are you only speaking about the senior officials, such as deputy ministers, or do you mean public servants as a whole, namely the 523,000 public servants who would be affected by the same rule? In other words, does this only apply to employees at the management level?

[Daphne Meredith]

I am not talking about the 523,000 public servants, because that is their total number.

I'm talking more about the core public administration, and that's the group to which Treasury Board will supply--

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thus, you are telling me that you are unable to answer this question regarding the entirety of the public service.

[Daphne Meredith]

That's right. First of all, our purview is with the smaller group, and I'd have to get the details for you.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Let me go on to another question. When we say that we are going to regenerate the public service, to hire new people because more and more people are retiring in increasing numbers, how do you intend to function? For instance do you do any recruiting from other public services, at the municipal and provincial levels? Rather than recruiting only from universities, are you in favour of selective immigration? When you look for people who could replace public servants in key positions of the federal government, do you ask the government to facilitate the admission of new Canadians who have training in some given field, whether it be management, human resources or something else?

[Daphne Meredith]

First of all, hiring is done by departments. My group, my office, does not hire for the whole public service; we hire for ourselves. But speaking of the public service, there are various avenues. There is the post-secondary recruitment drive that the Public Service Commission is in charge of. There's also mid-career recruitment. In fact, you might be surprised to learn, as I was, that the average age of a recruit to the public service is now 35. We're drawing from mid-career as well as post-secondary populations.

Departments have their initiatives to hire from outside the public service. Often they are aided by the Public Service Commission in establishing pools of people who might come in from outside. For example, in the recent past we've tried to attract people with financial credentials because there was a shortage of professionals with that expertise, as well as auditors.

Through planning we are trying to identify our needs for the future and look at how well we are equipped to supply those needs globally.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

If you can give me a few minutes to put just one last question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

This is your last question, yes.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Regarding the hiring of new officials, which is a problem that concerns you more directly, one of the important problems seems to be that the conditions offered by private enterprise are more attractive, with their wages and fringe benefits, than the conditions offered by the federal government in its ministries. We can observe the same thing happening with the provincial and municipal public services. Thus, what are the main obstacles that hinder this kind of recruiting?

[Daphne Meredith]

Well, I think we are a preferred employer. I think we are an excellent employer. We have certain organizations--Statistics Canada, the Farm Credit Corporation, and others in the core administration--that have proven themselves to be among the top employers. So I think we are well positioned to attract people to the public service.

We've looked at attitudes of those looking at career options. I think the gurus would tell us that the workforce of today is looking to make a difference, perhaps in greater numbers even than in the past. That motive, along with the compensation package that we offer, positions us extremely well to attract those key people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Julian for five minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to come back to the issue of the freeze and of its potential impact on lay-offs.

Have you estimated the impact in every region, for instance in my native British Columbia? Do you know what the impact could be on Canada as a whole?

[Daphne Meredith]

Since the freeze is on departmental budgets, and it is up to departments to ensure that they're respecting the limits on operating budgets, it will be to them to look at impacts regionally. Obviously it's very early days. The freeze has been announced only in the last few weeks, and departments will be looking at how they're going to meet it. But that will certainly be something for them to look at.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Would that be something that's compiled by Treasury Board? You get Manitoba, you get the estimates in from a number of different departments, you get the estimates in from British Columbia, and you compile them?

[Daphne Meredith]

It's not part of our regular job to compile the regional distribution of spending. Obviously it's done through some means, but it's not a regular Treasury Board activity to look at the regional distribution of spending.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

No, I'm speaking specifically to potential layoffs. If there are positions of layoff across the country, or there are estimates of what the impacts would be of the freeze, how is that then compiled so that we have a good sense of what the impacts are in British Columbia, or Manitoba, or Quebec, or Newfoundland and Labrador?

[Daphne Meredith]

I can tell you from our experience with the program review, which involved a sizeable downsizing of the public service back in the 1990s, one thing we learned was that we have to be sensitive to regional impacts. In fact, I do get out to the regions personally from time to time, and they're of course already talking to me about the regional impact of any initiatives that we might be taking. Now, in this context it's a freeze. It's not actually a cut in spending; it's a freeze in spending. I think that's important to note in terms of what we might expect in terms of impact.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay. Just help me here: I'm just trying to see at what point--for this committee, for example--that information might come back. I understand it's early days, but at some point there needs to be an estimate. Even if the estimate is no layoffs--that's great--somebody is handling and compiling the overall impact. It's not done department by department. It's channeled normally through the PCO or through the Treasury Board.

[Daphne Meredith]

Well, I believe the reporting is really done on a department-by-department basis, first and foremost, and that would be the first place to look.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay.

I'd like to move on to another issue. It's fascinating, the information about the average retirement age; nearly 59. Mr. Warkentin asked a question earlier about whether or not there were estimates about people going into the private sector and working as opposed to going into full retirement.

Have there been any internal surveys that either of you are aware of that show the percentage of public servants who might choose to stay on, on a part-time or casual basis, if there were changes or improvements made to that kind of situation? In a sense, they could continue to provide their expertise to the federal government and there may be some mechanisms that permit them to do that with a partial pension or other arrangements. Is there anything internally that you're aware of that's been done to indicate how things might be changed to facilitate that?