Government Operations Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[Maria Barrados]

We are not responsible for the Governor in Council appointments.

In the five-year assessment that the Public Service Commission did of the legislation, we put forward the views of the last commission on where we thought there was potential for change and improvement. One of the areas we flagged was the Governor in Council appointments, because that is an area where most western countries have instituted some other kinds of process. We have put in place a public appointments commission, which hasn't really been used. Our recommendation was that it was important to have more scrutiny of these appointments and the process around them.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

I want to change the subject now.

When we did an expenditure review back in 2005, my perception was that there was a regional bias in the public service. Other things being equal, if there were more people to be hired, it would be in the national capital region; and if there were people to be fired, it would tend to be in the regions. So we used what we called the gender lens to try to overcome this bias.

I notice from your report that in the last year, the proportion of the public service in the National Capital Region has indeed gone up. I think I read somewhere that it has been rising generally since about 2006. Is that correct?

[Maria Barrados]

You are correct. The proportion of public servants in the national capital is now around 40%. In the nineties, I think we were at about 30%.

I'm not sure I can pin down the dates, but I will get back to the committee and give you the numbers as to what the proportions were over time.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I would very much like to see that.

Do you think there is a bias against the regions, or do you think for some reason it is appropriate that the share coming to the National Capital Region goes up over time?

[Maria Barrados]

Well, it's a challenge. We want a representative public service, we want a public service that reflects the total population, and so I'm concerned about employment equity. We want to make sure that we represent the whole country in everything we do.

It is government that decides where they locate different functions. Policy decisions are made as to whether something is located in one place or another. Once those decisions are made, my remit is really to talk about the processes we use to get the people there.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You have 30 seconds.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I wonder if you can provide a time series, not only for the location but also for the executive versus non-executive members of the public service. Has that been going up over time?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, it has. We put the last numbers in our report. Usually the proportion of executives positions grows, with a little bit of a lag, compared to the rest of the public service. So we've seen quite a bit of growth, and the executive group has grown in the same proportion, with a bit of a lag.

Now we've seen a slowing down, and the executive group continues to grow. It is the group, however, that has the highest rate of departures. I don't know whether the planning hasn't quite caught up, so I'm cautioning people about this. They are looking for replacements and continuity. I'm not sure if this is a long-term trend, but in the last little while, it has grown more. The public service has hardly grown, but this group has grown.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Madam Barrados.

Jacques Gourde, you have five minutes, please.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Barrados, for being here today. I'd like to congratulate you on your leadership, and for taking the time to work for another democracy and testify so that people can benefit from your experience and expertise. As Canadians, we are happy to have high calibre people who can share our knowledge with other societies. I think it's commendable and I wanted to mention it.

This isn't the first time I have seen you appear before the committee. You have always made me aware of the fact that the retirement of many public servants, given the age groups, may cause problems in the public service because these people have a lot of expertise, which vanishes when they leave.

Can you tell us about the situation now and for the next few years, and give us an overview of the number or percentage of public servants who may be leaving?

[Maria Barrados]

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, we are in a period where the baby boomers are in the process of retiring. The rate of departures due to retirement is holding. The retirement rate is currently 3.7%, which has remained almost the same for the past five years. The retirement rate for the executive group is about twice as high. It was higher for some time. There is a little variability there because the numbers are much smaller. I think we will see this same trend for another three years.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Unless I'm mistaken, about 10% of our public servants will retire at a rate of 3.5% or 3.7% per year. Out of necessity, it seems that these people are going to leave us.

Among the people who work for the Canadian public service, will we find the expertise we need to replace all this knowledge that is going to leave or will we need to recruit outside the public service to compensate for the lack of expertise in certain areas? Regardless, do we have programs within the public service to round out employee skills so that employees might need only training or an additional six months of experience to take on these positions? Or will we have to recruit outside the public service?

I'm concerned about what you just said.

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, that's a concern.

I am not responsible for training within the public service. We are now entering a period of budgetary cuts. During that period, we will have to try to use the priority program to fill vacant positions by first recruiting public service employees with the required qualifications.

I know that we still have to train people, but I believe that it will be important to continue with targeted recruitment to ensure having the kind of expertise we need now and in the future. That requires solid planning.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much.

That's all for me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Jacques.

Denis Blanchette is next for five minutes.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Barrados, when you read your statement, the terms you used gave me the impression that there was some loss of control in terms of merit management. It's as if you were gradually becoming less and less able to verify and apply the merit rule. Is that really what's happening?

[Maria Barrados]

No, I don't think so. Actually, we have seen an improvement in how merit is assessed. However, I complain because we still have cases where that assessment is unclear.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

In fact, we are seeing an improvement in how managers perceive their merit assessment obligations. That said, a few signs indicate that there is still room for improvement.

Although there is still a percentage of cases where merit is not demonstrated, we have nevertheless increased the number of investigations to try to take corrective measures within departments. Those investigations are administered by deputy heads.

So, examining that information enables us to determine whether progress has been made. Nevertheless, we must also mention that there is room for further improvement. In an ideal system, we would have a much lower rate of demonstrated merit.

That is why we must continue working and reporting on what comes up in our audits.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

That's a bit surprising to me because, normally, fairly rigorous procedures are followed in public administration. Yet, we are being told that it is currently difficult to implement the process itself.

[Maria Barrados]

Five years ago, a major amendment was made to the legislation. The system was completely overhauled. As Ms. Laurendeau said, we have seen some progress. However, there are still issues to address when it comes to applying that definition and assessment standards.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

We know that many job cuts are forthcoming through attrition and that the government wants to reduce the size of the public service. Against such a backdrop and with the knowledge that, of course, all departments and organizations will be required to provide the same service, the government will be under pressure to quickly hire people.

Do we not risk short-circuiting the merit process to achieve a result as quickly as possible?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, that is always a risk. When the amendments to the legislation and new approaches started being enforced, the Public Service Commission was responsible for a number of staffing services. We have talked about what we would do with those services. In the end, we decided to keep them. That way, employees from various departments could use them so that things could be done properly. In addition, all the tools for carrying out the process correctly would be made available.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You have about one minute left.