Government Operations Committee on June 14th, 2011

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I didn't say. The lapse in this fiscal year is much less than you're indicating.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

In this fiscal year.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Yes. But last year's was $123.5 million.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay. Well, I'll pass on--

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

You're talking about the coming year now.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm talking about the year that ended March 31, 2011.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

So 2010-11.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Yes, 2010-11. You don't have that number.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That number is not public yet because there are still calculations based on the mission.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay. I'll move on.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

But the number you gave is not correct.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay. I'll accept that.

My next question has to do with the cost of the Libya mission. Again, I'm a strong supporter of that mission, but in terms of cost, I think your number was approximately $60 million for the full six-month period.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

That would be, yes, the extension, presuming that the vote--

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

But the Rideau Institute and others have said that the true cost is significantly greater than that. What do you include in the cost? Do you include depreciation on the planes or salaries of military people? And what is the per-unit cost of these smart bombs?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

They're incremental costs, firstly, so they don't include such things as depreciation or salaries. That is not normally part of what would be considered incremental costs when it comes to the mission. So the Rideau Institute, as so often is the case, is wrong.

Again, on the price per ordnance, they are putting a figure forward that is double what the Department of National Defence has paid for the types of munitions that we've been using in this mission--that is, guided ordnances, colloquially referred to as smart bombs. They have ordnances in place that are designed and put in place, as you would know, Mr. McCallum, to ensure precision. Laser-guided ordnances by their very nature are going to be more expensive, but they are nowhere near--

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Can you tell us the approximate unit cost of those smart bombs?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

The unit cost I have seen has been between $25,000 and $40,000.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay.

When I was at defence and went across the country and talked to people in the Canadian Forces anywhere but Ottawa, they would all agree that headquarters was super-bureaucratic, super-bloated, out of control, and getting bigger and bigger all the time. My understanding is that it has become worse in recent years. I'm not blaming any of the people who work there, because I think the problem is greater than any one individual. I remember we brought in some outside people to try to at least contain the growth of the headquarters. So my question to you is whether you agree with that assessment. You would probably use different vocabulary, but do you agree it's somewhat too big? And might measures to perhaps redeploy some people from headquarters back to bases in Canada or abroad be a good move as part of a cost-saving exercise?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You may want to come back to this in further questioning, but we're technically out of time on that round, so could we have a brief answer, please?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Let me put it this way, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McCallum, we are constantly, in this fiscal environment, looking for efficiencies both in the way in which we administer the department itself and in services to members of the forces and support for what they do. Clearly the Canada First defence strategy was an effort to allow for long-term planning, and to allow for the prioritization of the pillars within the department, which, as you know, are personnel, equipment, infrastructure, and the readiness of the Canadian Forces to respond.

With the relocation of many of the Canadian Forces personnel on the civilian side to the Nortel campus, we are, in my view, presented an optimal opportunity right now to look at efficiencies and to use attrition within the current bureaucracy of the department to achieve those efficiencies, but to do so in a way that's fair to ensure that we don't leave ourselves short. Because--make no mistake about it--the public servants on the civilian side are extremely important to providing services.

To come back to an earlier question about the new pension we're setting up for reservists, making sure that we're giving that pensionable time recognition and support is a critical priority for us. So we're balancing all of these competing priorities. We're always looking for ways to achieve efficiencies. We're always following your good example, because I know you are someone who places a high priority on fiscal prudence.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister.

Ron Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ministers.

I also want to thank the department officials as well for the great work they do. Procurement is an important area of our economy. In my riding of Kelowna—Lake Country, Kelowna Flightcraft, an armour works company, was recently a supporter looking to provide services to our men and women who serve not only nationally, but abroad, and I want to thank them as well for their dedication.

My cousin's husband is back in Afghanistan for the third tour of duty right now.

Minister MacKay, you talked in your opening comments about how the Canadian Forces are fighting a very brutal enemy in Afghanistan. As we move closer to July 31 and the deadline to end our combat mission, maybe you can enlighten the committee a little bit about exactly where the troops will be located for the training mission and what they will be doing. Can you confirm whether the troops will be out of Kandahar by the end of July?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Cannan, and thank you for your enduring support for the men and women in uniform.

The short answer is yes, the intention is fully to comply with the announced end to combat and transition to training. This is a volatile time. Very often near the end of a tour you'll see, especially during the fighting season, a ramped-up effort on the part of the Taliban to inflict optimal damage on forces and on civilians. It's a very volatile time in the Kandahar region, where the Canadian Forces find themselves predominantly in the Horn of Panjwaii, which is, as Mr. Alexander will know, one of the most fiercely guarded parts of the country. It's the spiritual home of the Taliban, and really the eye of the storm, where Canadian Forces have had a tremendous effect.

By “effect” I mean bringing about what we hope will be lasting stability and normalcy for the people, for the population. We are seeing schools there. We saw, during a recent visit with the Prime Minister, a wheat field in what is really hallowed ground for Canadians. It's where we have lost lives, where soldiers have served. The visual of seeing wheat growing on what was parched land in an area in the Arghandab region, where only the poppy had appeared to be a source of sustenance and cash crop.... Now beets, barley, pomegranate, and other agrarian pursuits are replacing the poppy.

The schools really are perhaps the biggest symbol of hope within that country, where alternative education, where girls can go to school for the first time--these are the things that soldiers will speak about with such passion. They've seen the difference. Most of them, as you mentioned, have been on at least one tour, if not more, and during their time in the country have seen the changes that are occurring in the villages and the confidence that is growing.

As we transition to the training mission, Canada will be able to contribute what I think will be one of the most important lasting legacies of this mission, and that's imparting their skill set—in some cases, very tragically hard-won skills, in combat--to Afghan security forces, both police and army, giving them the ability to do what we do for them, giving them the chance to defend their own sovereignty, to protect those villages and their populations. That's our ticket home. That will allow Canadian soldiers and others to come back knowing that they have made a lasting difference in that country: they'll be able to protect for the future that stability, that fragility that's there.

So I am continually impressed with the commitment and the professionalism and the sacrifices that they've made to get us to this point.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thanks.

Little Women for Little Women in Afghanistan, a group of ladies in my riding, raised money to help women teachers in Afghanistan, so it's good to hear that the results are very positive. Reservists in our community, the B.C. Dragoons, have been part of that contingent.

I will just switch the channel quickly to the importance of Arctic sovereignty. A key message from Prime Minister Harper and our government has been to work on investing in and protecting the north. Maybe you could just elaborate a little bit on the investments and some of the exercises going on up north.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

We do have northern sovereignty operations, and we'll have them again this summer. We have different units and regiments that participate. Again, there is a unique opportunity in Canada where the Canadian Rangers work with members of the Canadian Forces, teaching them important survival skills. They provide eyes and ears in the north in a way that really no other member of our population could. It's an incredible experience to see those operations take place and the type of training they do.

We know that the Arctic ice is changing. It's opening up in many cases, which will increase access. It will increase both Canadian and international interest in going to the north. Having a physical presence there will be extremely important, and falls in large part to members of the Canadian Forces, regular and reservists, who will be called upon to be there.

We have invested in and announced a large deep-water refueling station for Nanisivik. That project is proceeding. We are sharing, in some cases, the projects with Natural Resources Canada on the research and development side. We're looking at recovering some of the austere runways that exist in the north and making them serviceable in the future.

So as the environment changes, we'll be there to meet those challenges.