Government Operations Committee on March 14th, 2012

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay.

I want to discuss lobbyists, which is something this committee has considered. We see that, in next year’s main estimates, an additional $54,000 will be spent on lobbyist registrations. However, $112,000 will be cut from examinations and investigations carried out under the legislation. So more lobbyists will be registered, but fewer resources will be available for investigations and examinations in order to check whether those people are violating the law and the regulations. That’s a contradiction.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Actually, it is less than $8,000, as the funding has been changed.

[Michelle d'Auray]

The changes were made to that vote based on the priorities set by the commissioner. The modification resulted in a difference of $8,000 compared with the total budget.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Yes, but the money is allocated for different reasons. More lobbyists are registered, but there are fewer investigations.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Yes, but those changes were made by the commissioner herself. She’s the one who asked for them. We did not ask for them. Those are their own projections.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

This office is well managed; that’s all. We did not make that decision.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Alexandre. That's what this exercise is all about: drilling down deeper.

Next we have Mike Wallace for five minutes.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for coming.

I really have questions for your officials, but I have one question for you. You may not be able to answer it at this point, but you had a significant role at the provincial level as Minister of Health, with probably the largest budget in the province—I'm guessing that it would be. You will have had experience reviewing spending and estimates at the provincial level.

Is there anything at the provincial level that they're doing right from which we could learn here?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Not presently.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I meant in terms of process, not politics.

Do you have any comment on how it works at the provincial level? I just don't know how it works with the province.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

There are some significant differences.

I served not only as the Minister of Health but also in other ministries. I also served on the Management Board of Cabinet, which is the complementary agency in the Ontario government to the Treasury Board.

There are some differences in approach of which I'm cognizant. There are certain things that I have learned from that experience that I'm trying to apply here. I think it helps me in my role as President of the Treasury Board. The only thing I would signal at this point is, to repeat what I said over the weekend and have been saying for a while now, that there are some things I think we can do—and this body is important to that process as well—to move from a culture of spending enabling to a culture of cost containing.

I think that involves two things that human beings rely on to change behaviour: one is how you're compensated and what the reward system is; the second thing is how you are overseen. There has to be accountability.

Obviously, one is more structural, which we'll have to deal with, but the other—how we oversee this—is a joint role that I have with you. I'm looking forward to making some positive changes.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I appreciate that.

Here are the questions for your staff. Again, they're all process stuff for me at this particular moment.

I'm looking at the ends of supplementary estimates (C) for this year, and then I look at the main estimates for the new fiscal year coming. At the end of supplementary estimates (C)—and I'm using the same section, so it's everything up to vote 33 and the three statutory pieces after that—the total estimates to date are $4.5 billion.

When I look at the main estimates for 2011-12, for the new fiscal year, they're at $5.8 billion. There tends to be a significant difference there. I just don't know why that is. Shouldn't the ends of the supplementary estimates (C) reflect what the total ask is that is reflected in the main estimates for this coming fiscal year?

Sally might be able to answer that question.

[Michelle d'Auray]

The biggest changes for us, Mr. Chair, are really in relation to the central votes. We get attributed to the Treasury Board votes at the beginning of the year and we disburse them throughout the year. So you will see the reductions from our central votes going out, because they're transferred out to departments.

For example, we get the central votes for the operating budget carry-forward. It shows up in our main estimates. Then we disburse them to the departments. It's the same thing for capital expenditure; it comes in and then it goes out.

On top of that, there are also some reductions, as we were discussing earlier, whereby we have in fact reduced our expenditures.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

On central votes, we had PCO in front of us a week ago or so. In not one of their estimates books did the numbers match what was previously authorized—not one. They didn't have supplementary estimates (A), and there were none in supplementary estimates (B) or (C) and none in the mains.

Their answer was that they were changed because of central votes.

Where does a guy like me find that? How do I follow that bouncing ball? I can't figure it out.

[Michelle d'Auray]

They are in the annexes, where you see the vote transfers.

[A voice]

Ah!

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Is it possible, then, Michelle, that there could be a footnote or some number at the bottom of the page to say “look here”, so that we can find it? It's very difficult for me to find—and I don't have a social life; I look at these things all day long.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

While they're looking around, could I just make the point that this is one of the reasons I want to get all of this stuff online much more, because I think that when you have an online version of these things, we can start to hyperlink and it will be easier to follow the bouncing ball.

That's just my point of view, which is why I'm really pressing hard to get all this stuff online, with less paper. It saves some trees, but it will also make it easier, I believe, and more functional for you and for the taxpayer to understand and follow these things.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

That was an editorial comment.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Let me refer you to page 158 of supplementary estimates (C). You will see, on pages 159 and following, “Allocations from...Central Votes”.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

We're learning. I've been here 15 years. By the time I've been here about 25 years, I might have some understanding of how these things work.

John McCallum, from the Liberals, has five minutes.