Government Operations Committee on May 7th, 2012

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

With respect to supplementary estimates—

[Shannon Dean]

Again, some of these questions are better put to the department.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

With respect to the supplementary estimates then, are there one or two supplementary estimates in Alberta? There was reference to both supplementary and interim estimates.

Are those one and the same thing, or are they different?

[Shannon Dean]

In Alberta, typically we'll have supplementary estimates in a fall sitting. We may have supplementary estimates near the end of the fiscal year, which would be tabled at the same time as the budget address. Interim supply is only required, obviously, if our appropriation bill is not going to receive royal assent before the end of the fiscal year. For example, this year there was no need for interim supply.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay. So at most, then, you have two supplementary estimates.

[Shannon Dean]

Well, there's no cap on the number of supplementary estimates, but I can speak to the practice for the last decade or so. There have typically been two, and in very rare circumstances, three.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

As you've indicated and explained, the estimates go to one of the five policy field committees. There is no equivalent in Alberta to the committee that we're on, which is a committee devoted or dedicated to estimates. Is that correct?

[Shannon Dean]

That's correct.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Is there any particular reason you're aware of as to why it is the case that you don't have a dedicated committee?

[Shannon Dean]

No. The policy field committees are recent additions to our process out here. Prior to the policy field committees considering estimates, all of the estimates went to the committee of supply. There was another process back in the 1990s where subcommittees of supply considered estimates, but in brief, there is no committee equivalent to what you have in Ottawa.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay.

One of the things that we've heard from various witnesses and experts who have appeared before us is that there should be a super-committee, even more super than we are already—although I know it's hard to believe, Mr. Chair.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

One of the reasons for this is that it develops a really specific expertise on the part of parliamentarians.

In Alberta, if the estimates go to one of the five appropriate policy field committees, is there any concern or criticism that the MLAs aren't developing expertise with respect to estimates? Is there a concern about a potential dilution of the process? Are you aware of any concerns in that regard?

[Shannon Dean]

No, not really. The idea is that the estimates for a particular department are going to a policy field committee that's familiar with the programs associated with that department, so there is some familiarity there.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

That's it for your time, Peter.

Thank you.

Next, for the NDP, is Jean-François Larose.

You have five minutes, Jean-François.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses.

I'm going to take more time to formulate my question and put it in layman's terms. We are used to hearing longer answers, but we will manage.

Earlier, you said something interesting about the budget. I know that you cannot give your opinion about certain issues. Moreover, I am not going to ask you to look back in time or even to talk about the current situation, but rather to look ahead.

When the budget is tabled, it is done so in a centralized manner supposedly to speed things up. However, you said that, in Alberta, in the past, the budget had been divided into three parts.

Would it be technically possible to divide the budget into several sections? Would we slow things down tremendously if we were to consider the budget item by item? Is that the case in Alberta, or would that be the case for everyone in general?

Indeed, we have a problem. When a budget is presented as one document, we have to give our opinion on the document in its entirety, without being able to examine the content, when in fact this content has a great deal of impact. We are seeing this trend more and more. It is like a Trojan horse. By the time we realize that the budget contains some bad surprises that could have been corrected at the outset, had there been an item-by-item consideration, we are already working on the next budget, the following year.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[Shannon Dean]

Not in particular, but as I said before, I think the key difference between Alberta and the system you have in place is one of timing and the information available in the main estimates documents, because what is presented when the budget speech is delivered reflects what is in the budget speech, and that's the information that is presented to the committees.

[Dr. Philip Massolin]

If I may supplement that answer, if I understand your question correctly—and I may not, and forgive me if I don't—I don't think there's any restriction in terms of not doing a thorough questioning of the budget within that policy field or committee supply consideration of the individual estimates. The voting, however, is divided up into different elements. However, the consideration can be done in a thorough way within the time allocated.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Linda Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm very interested in your scheduling process for considering the estimates, and I'm just wondering if you could share or sent that to us. I'm also wondering who is in charge of setting that scheduling of the ministers for the estimates. Is it the Department of Finance or somebody who slots in the ministers? I ask because there's a bit of a game that goes on here at this level, where we hear, “Oh, too bad, the minister isn't available”, so then we don't get to see the minister.

I'm just wondering who actually runs that process. Is somebody saying, “You, Minister, will be there on this date, and we've slotted you in”?

[Shannon Dean]

Under our standing orders, ultimately the government House leader is responsible for that schedule. I do understand it's very difficult to schedule the different ministers. In the last number of years when we've had this process in place, I recall only one or two ministers not being available due to illness. So they do appear before the committees.

Just to highlight the process with respect to the government House leader setting the schedule, he does, under the standing orders, consult with the official opposition House leader and the third party House leader as well as the chairs of the policy field committees.

We'd be pleased to provide that schedule.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

The minister is there for the full three hours?

[Shannon Dean]

That's correct.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

That's just about it for time.

Thank you very much, Ms. Duncan.

Next, for the Conservatives, we have Scott Armstrong.