Government Operations Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I think that answers my question. Thank you.

Maybe later you could comment on the roof. Was it Heritage that wouldn't let you put a normal peaked roof on or was this an architectural design? Maybe you can answer that in the context of other questioning, because I've taken up too much time now and it's actually cost us time.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I verified with the clerk the last time this happened when the Liberals weren't here. He confirmed that for questions, the process is supposed to be opposition, government, opposition, government. The fact that he's not here right now isn't my problem. Normally, we should have the questions right now rather than the government, because it becomes unfair that they have two questions back to back.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

In this case, the chair has taken some liberties. I've actually used up the time that would normally be allocated to the Liberals at this particular juncture.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

I respect you, Mr. Chair, but you don't count.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you. That very well sums it up and shows who really runs things around here.

It's actually now the Conservatives' turn.

In the future, as a matter of policy, you're right. The questioning does go, opposition, government, opposition, government, regardless of which party is representing the opposition. We'll try to stick to that in the future.

Costas Menegakis.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

First of all, Mr. Chair, let me say that we always value your input and, at least speaking for myself, you count.

[An hon. member]

Ah, that's very kind. You get six minutes for that.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a question now for our witnesses.

I'm going to preface it by saying that when a country bids for the Olympic games, they get a response as to whether or not they will have them about seven years ahead of time, and in the seven years, they build an entire infrastructure and host the biggest extravaganza in the world. I'm looking at the West Block, and from 2011 to 2017 is six years, for one building. Now, I'm sure there are good reasons.

Could you elaborate on why it's taking so long for this project? It's one project, and I'm curious as to why it's taking so long.

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Thank you for the question.

If we continue with the Olympic Games analogy, we do not have just one project on the go, we have several. If you walk along Wellington Street, you will see all the scaffolding. Several projects are happening.

There are a number of reasons why we need several years for the West Block project. First, we took out the hazardous materials and gutted the interior. That needed a lot of time. We have approved methodologies, but gutting buildings like that takes a lot of time. Additionally, in spite of all the lessons we have learned, when some walls are opened up, we realize that there is more work to be done than we thought. We built it into our contingencies, but the demolition takes an extremely long time.

There is something else that takes a lot of time—rehabilitating the masonry. Earlier, we showed you some photographs. The masonry must be removed stone by stone in almost 50% of the building. That means we need experienced masons. We take photographs of the wall, we take out the cement, we remove the stone and, from time to time, we can see that the structure is beginning to fall apart. It all has to be scraped clean and—because it is a historic building—the stones have to be numbered so that they can be put back in the same place. We redo the interior wall, we redo the exterior wall, and, if some stones have rotted, we cut new ones from the large blocks we have already bought. Then we put the new stones in place to be uniform. We put it back in the same state and the same original position. That is the historical option. That is how historic buildings have to be renovated. It takes time. We do the exterior masonry work first; then we do the interior masonry work.

There is another reason we need more time. We are also going to have to rehabilitate the brickwork in the interior court. Then we will have to start building. Some things can be done together, other things cannot. We have to make sure that the interior masonry has been completed before we can start building the roof and the columns. It takes time, expert workers and specific skills because it is a huge building.

In fact, we do not see the period from 2011 to 2017 as being so long after all.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Your response is basically that the main consideration involves restoring a historical building. That's the uniqueness of this, right? It's the historical aspect that's taking that long.

Is there a large pool of skilled trades available for this kind of work? Are they part of the normal tendering process?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

There will be close to 250 specialized masons on the building site from all over Canada. The company that is currently working on the site is providing us with the expertise we need. We will have a lot of artisans working on redoing the interior moulding. We will need a lot of specialized workers who will have to have significant technical knowledge. They are currently on the job market.

With respect to the contractual procedures, we do not hire plumbers directly. We go through our construction manager, PCL, to hire subcontractors. All of that is done according to the correct and recognized contractual procedures.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You have 30 seconds.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Can you elaborate on what strategies you've undertaken to improve the energy efficiency of the buildings in the parliamentary precinct?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

In 15 seconds that's tough. That would take two hours.

It's like my colleague said. There is the issue of triple glass in the roof. Heat recovery is important to us. We will be able to play with sensors that will allow us to adjust the temperature based on where people are. There are other elements that we can use to detect movement and determine if an office is empty. At that point, the lighting will dim.

We are in the process of integrating all the codes and going beyond all the building codes or energy savings codes required of us.

I know I don't have a lot of time, but I could tell you one last thing. Among our architects and engineers, we have international engineers who have worked on similar roofing projects in other countries and that have been involved in other major projects. We are learning a lot from them. At the same time, we are making sure we respect every state-of-the-art environmental component and even go a little beyond that, as I said.

Being able to ultimately add 50% more space is also a savings. This may not be a sustainable savings. It's a savings that will enable us to eventually free up leases that we have in the city and bring certain groups back into our buildings.

In short, some savings will be environmental and others will eventually be purely operational ones that will take place within this new project.

Sorry for the short answer.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

We can learn more about that in the context of other questioning.

Next we have Jean-François Larose.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Just to put it on record, Mr. Chair, even though I said you are on neutral ground, your questions are always appreciated. I just wanted to clarify that.

My first question has to do with the 2012-2013 Report on Plans and Priorities. According to the report, urgent work is planned in order to preserve buildings under the recapitalization program. I would like to hear more about the health and safety problems.

Could you tell us about the essential health and safety components?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

I will probably ask my colleague to talk more about the recap process.

Mainly, I can tell you one thing.

For example, look at what is under way on the East Block tower. It is covered in white sheets. We had trouble with the masonry on that part of the tower. It was falling apart. The foundation was less stable, as well. The structure of the roof and the roof itself were less solid.

That is part of the work we are doing quickly. We aren't waiting to have the project approved. We get this done quickly.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Has an evaluation been done for all the buildings you have?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Yes, we have evaluations. We are creating what we call building management plans. These are evaluations for each building. We do evaluations regularly.

I'll hand things over to my colleague.

Maybe you can talk about the BMPs and the process we have.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Could I have specifically, point by point, exactly what it is we mean? What's being touched by these works?

[Joanne Monette, Director General, Planning and Operations, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Absolutely. Thank you for the question.

On a five-year basis, we do building condition reports on each one of our assets. They identify the areas that need to be looked at urgently. And we take health and safety quite seriously.

What I look after is a program called recap, which is the recapitalization program. We also, on an annual basis, do building management plans, which allow us to plan for all of our projects. We put forward a budget and talk about all of the work we want to undertake. All the health and safety components are under my recap project. When we do the studies on the buildings, they identify what work needs to be done, and then we program for it.

As Mr. Mongeau just mentioned, we have done the towers. Currently we're looking at doing a project on the tower on the East Block. We've also done work on the elevators in the Confederation Building. We've just replaced 200 windows in the Confederation Building as well.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Does that specifically have to do with health and safety problems because of asbestos? It's a serious problem we have in our old buildings.

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Thank you for the question.

We have a management plan for asbestos. As you know, East Block was being renovated, and the asbestos we found there has been removed. Asbestos and all other hazardous products are currently controlled. We have management plans for asbestos and other hazardous products.

Asbestos is not currently a danger. It is encapsulated and controlled. Instead, we are talking about other products. The issue in Centre Block is much less serious than in West Block.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

An article that appeared recently—and I think you know about it—implied that there was no control over the asbestos-related files. I'm a little confused. You seem to be downplaying asbestos, and you don't seem to be monitoring the tonnage. You don't seem to have a record of what has been removed or installed. I don't understand.