Government Operations Committee on March 21st, 2013

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you to both of you for participating. I really appreciate it. We're hoping we can benefit from lessons learned in the provincial jurisdictions to improve the energy efficiency at the federal level, and we appreciate your long-term experience.

As I was sitting here, I was thinking with amusement. I come from a coal-fired province. We also have privatized electricity. In many ways, you're both exactly the same. You both have crown corporations and you both rely on hydro power. It's interesting to see the two of you together. It would be nice to hear from Saskatchewan or Alberta about how they're meeting the challenge, because of course carbon emissions are a bigger issue for them.

I'm not sure you gave answers in detail, so I'll ask both jurisdictions these two questions. One of the big challenges for the federal government is that a lot of the office space, space for housing, facilities, and so forth is leased as opposed to owned. I'd be interested in any kind of policy or incentive you have to trigger investment by the private entities that own the facilities you're having to use.

In connection with that, Cindy Choy I think spoke quite a bit about this digital control, automated lighting, potentially retrofitted lighting, low flow water use, and so forth. I'm wondering what your experience has been in trying to get private building owners to actually introduce those. Or are you only using this digital control when you have already retrofitted a building in a major way?

[Cindy Choy]

There are two pieces. Relative to the direct digital controls, I'll ask Susanne to speak on that.

But relative to incentivizing or motivating private industry to move...our green building policy has been in effect for about five years. It really has affected about 40% of the industrial institutional commercial building market in Manitoba. We extrapolate from this that with that scope of effect for our green building policy, which requires energy efficiency in the processes associated with it, and local fixtures' water efficiency, we're motivating and moving the market, at least in terms of ability and capacity to deliver for private projects too.

If I could just reiterate, our policy and program extends not only to government-owned but to government-funded.... Relative to provincial and federal funding for projects, we cover or we effect municipal projects, community projects, food banks, in addition to the typical kinds of buildings you'd expect for government relative to any office buildings we construct and institutional properties, such as schools, health, and corrections.

I'll let Susanne speak to you—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Let me interject here.

I understand you are talking about buildings whose building you help to fund or that you build and use, but I'm rather curious about what percentage of the government space used by the provinces is leased from someone else versus the percentage that you have built, and about whether you are using those mechanisms to also figure out a way to get the private property owners to do that kind of work.

[Cindy Choy]

We're investigating options or possibilities for including energy efficiency in our leases. Certainly, in our standard schedule B, which sets out requirements for lease properties, we ask for low flow and we ask for performance criteria, but it's through our RFP and our specifications that we attempt to do this.

[Bernie Gaudet]

Would you like B.C. to pipe in on the lease question first? Then we can both talk about the question about DDC.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Sure.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Go ahead.

[Bernie Gaudet]

About 80% of our commercial portfolio is leased, so we have the same issues, I imagine, as the federal portfolio would, or similar issues.

There are two areas around which we focus our efforts. Similar to what we were I think collectively talking about regarding both Manitoba and B.C., there's the operational side and there's the retrofit side.

On the operational side, our out-source service provider is obliged to provide energy efficiency equally in our leased portfolio and in our own portfolio, and we're quite clear about that in our contract with them.

There are obviously different areas of jurisdiction that our out-source service provider has. For example, in some of our leased space the base building systems are controlled more by the landowner. However, in our contracts or leases with the landowner, there are clauses that indicate that we may present to them areas of interest for improvement—if we notice that, for example, the ventilation system is working overtime, or in the summer that the boiler is working, and that kind of thing. Because we pay the energy in most of our leased facilities, we have the authority to request of the landowner, and to have them respond reasonably, to ensure that the building we occupy, that we're leasing, performs efficiently.

There is the operational side. On the retrofit side, our leases are typically in five-year increments. What we try to do, when the leases are renegotiated, is build into the negotiation whatever retrofits on the building systems we'd like to see happen. There is an assessment of the building as we enter that negotiation period. We are more than willing to share the incentive and the cost associated with retrofitting the building systems for our leased portfolio as well.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Mr. Gaudet.

I'm afraid that concludes your time, Ms. Duncan.

We really try to keep the questions fairly brief and succinct and the answers as short as possible so that we can give more committee members opportunities.

Ron Cannan is next, for the Conservative Party.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to our witnesses.

Let me say to my colleague across the way that I grew up in her riding in Edmonton. Given the Alberta and the Manitoba winters, 23 years ago I got wise and went west to beautiful British Columbia, so I have the honour of representing the constituency of Kelowna—Lake Country.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

No editorializing is allowed.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

To our friends in British Columbia, I offer a welcome to our meeting today. I just have a couple of questions.

We're very blessed to have an abundance of hydro energy and clean energy supply. We know that conservation is the key to ensuring that we have a cost-efficient energy supply, which, as we also know, is very important for a vibrant economy.

In your opening comments you alluded to your success in reaching carbon neutrality, one of the goals of your 2008 energy efficiency plan. Could you expand a little on how much the Province of British Columbia invested to accomplish that goal?

[Rob Abbott]

I'd be happy to speak to that.

The background on carbon-neutral government is that the legislation mandates every public sector organization on an annual basis to measure its greenhouse gas emissions as rigorously as possible, to take steps to reduce those emissions as much as possible, and to offset the balance through the purchase of offsets from the Pacific Carbon Trust, a crown corporation that was specifically created to assist the public sector in that regard.

We have achieved carbon neutrality for 2010 and 2011. We are confident that we will achieve carbon neutrality again for 2012.

In the first two years that we have achieved carbon-neutral government, it has cost the public sector approximately $19 million in offset purchases. I would hasten to add, however, that the provincial public sector in British Columbia spends just less than $400 million a year on energy costs. So we are using the incentive of $25 a tonne to purchase offsets as a very direct economic incentive to look for energy efficient opportunities.

Obviously, our eye is on reducing our reliance on offsets going forward, but equally on reducing the cost of energy within the public sector. That is why we're so encouraged by some of what we've seen in our energy efficiency efforts.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I appreciate that.

We also heard about green jobs created from the greening of the buildings. Do you have any idea what numbers of jobs have been created as a result of this initiative?

[Rob Abbott]

I can speak to job creation related to the carbon-neutral government effort, and my colleagues Bernie and Erik may choose to comment on potential job creation as a result of some of the other energy efficiency efforts.

What I can say with respect to carbon-neutral government is that it is our contention that driving emission reductions in the public sector and investing in emission reduction projects, or indeed in offsets, makes good business sense.

Research in 2012 by PricewaterhouseCoopers pointed out that our offsets portfolio and the investments the public sector has made in that regard stimulated an estimated $320 million in capital spending, $240 million in provincial GDP contribution, just below $50 million in contribution to government revenue, and, specifically speaking to your question, the creation of 2,800 jobs. It's a small but we believe growing component of the economy.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Are these 2,800 full-time jobs or just jobs over a certain period of time—so many job-hours or person-years?

[Rob Abbott]

Those are full-time positions.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

I have one other question for Mr. Abbott, before you go.

Are you the Rob Abbott who is the founder of Abbott Strategies?

[Rob Abbott]

I am indeed.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I was just looking at your website. I don't have much time, but I want to know whether you can clarify the buzzword “sustainability”.

I served nine years on local government and have been around for a little more than seven years federally, and in many cases this word is overused. On your website you refer to a lecture that talks about sustainability and says:

And therein lies both the challenge and the opportunity for society: to reframe sustainability as shorthand for innovation that can grow bottom lines while shrinking environmental footprints; that can solve real-world environmental concerns while protecting the economy; that can make business more efficient, not less, thereby improving our quality of life.

I know it's international poetry day, but maybe you could clarify this statement a little. It's a lot of nice words, but what were you meaning by it? I know you show that engineers have a responsibility, but how do you implement it, focusing on protecting the economy and the environment?

[Rob Abbott]

There are many ways of approaching sustainability. A simple way of thinking about it, I believe, is that sustainability is fundamentally about how we create financial and social wealth and well-being without damaging the environment long-term.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Is there any other way other than—

[Rob Abbott]

There is a tendency sometimes to think of sustainability as a higher, faster kind of environmental management, but I think it's important to link that to financial and social wealth and prosperity. The trick—and in fact this is one of the rationales for our carbon-neutral government program—is to foster innovation, deliver the same kinds of government services, redesign our conception of what government services might look like in the future with a view to providing that service with a reduced carbon footprint. That's consistent with this idea of how do we create wealth and well-being, prosperity, without damaging the environment long term.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I'm running out of time. I just want to know, is there any other way besides carbon tax?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You were out of time a long time ago, Mr. Cannan. I can always tell a veteran because he asks a really long question just when his time's running out, so it extends things.

That was an interesting diversion, though. I appreciate it very much.