Government Operations Committee on Oct. 4th, 2011

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I have one last question. It is really a question on a silver platter. Can you give us some concrete examples of obstacles you have managed to eliminate over the last five years, obstacles SMEs used to encounter in seeking contracts? Can you tell us about your successes?

[Pablo Sobrino]

For instance, we decided to eliminate jargon. That jargon was brought in by procurement experts. I had to learn it myself since I recently joined the department. We try to see through all of that to come up with simple and precise language. That is one of the objectives of the website. That would be the first point.

The second point concerns how to get ready for smaller contracts, that is to say those under $25,000. That is the work of the audit and management boards. This procurement strategy aims to simplify criteria so that everyone knows what the objectives are and how the assessment will be made, in a simple and clear way.

Those are the two objectives for the smaller purchases. That is how to improve the system. Those are two examples and we could provide other ones. That is how we intend to make improvements.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Kelly Block with the Conservatives, go ahead, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses today. Don't mind my voice. I'm suffering from a fairly bad cold.

I want to follow up on a comment that one of my colleagues made earlier in terms of assistance translating into more contracts. I think that's the measurement he was identifying, whether or not you can measure how the assistance you give translates into more contracts.

My question is more specifically to perhaps the relationship you have with the procurement ombudsman. I'm wondering about something. Last week, we heard from Frank Brunetta here at committee, and he gave us some insight on how he deals with inquiries and complaints mainly from SMEs. My question, which may go back to my colleague's observation, is, do you find that SMEs contact your office to get clarification or to seek some assistance in the process of perhaps even wanting to follow up on a complaint with the ombudsman?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

Yes, actually they do. We now have a guide to complaining, which we've published for piloting purposes. We're just testing it now with the user community. One of the big things people want to know is who they can speak to if things are not going their way. So we've created this guide, and we're working with the office of the procurement ombudsman to make sure it meets all the needs of the people who have come to them as well.

We already have the guide on how to do business with the Government of Canada. We thought as a companion piece we would have the guide to complaint systems, because that is important. A lot of them are time-sensitive. To go to the CITT, you need to know what your window is. That's business intelligence information that suppliers really need. We're very attuned to that, and I think it's a really important feature of our service.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Are you doing this together with the procurement ombudsman? Do you have any kind of a relationship with his office at all?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

No, we're at arm's length from the OPO. They're at arm's length from acquisitions branch. But we use them, as we would any tester community or people we would consult with, to say, “Do you think this is good?” or “What feedback do you have?” So, for example, they will be one of the groups that we give the guide to and ask if they have any feedback, but it's not done collaboratively or anything. They're an arm's-length organization.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

My last question would be in follow-up to our chair's comments on bundling. I'm wondering, in the case that a government contract goes to a large company, how much of the actual contract work if any might be redistributed to SMEs. Do you have any idea on that?

[Pablo Sobrino]

Every contract has specific measures. There's no structured way of doing that. So contracts are negotiated, and we occasionally, working with Industry Canada, come up with industrial regional benefits. Those kinds of things affect how contracts are distributed and how they're managed. However, every contract is different, so I couldn't specifically address that question.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Do I have any more time?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You still have one and a half minutes, Kelly, if you'd like.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

You've talked about the need to identify barriers for SMEs, the things that keep them from being able to procure contracts with the government. You've also talked about raising awareness and a number of the activities you do to do that. You mentioned that you have a small office. You have six regional offices. Do you have an awareness campaign or an education plan to educate the public and SMEs about the work your office does?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

We actually have two. We have one just for how to do business with the government and then we have the one that's specifically dedicated to the Canadian innovation commercialization program, because that's targeting innovators in the R and D space, so that's slightly different. We do, and that's why we have a suite of seminars, because we want to be able to help novice or rookie suppliers who don't really know anything about doing business with the Government of Canada.

We also want to provide service that's useful to companies that actually have done business with the government before but may want to do it differently or do something else or branch out into another area. We do actually offer a suite of seminars and services. We answer questions on 1-800 lines across the country to make sure that we are actually targeting their needs.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

That concludes your time, Ms. Block. Thank you.

While we are waiting for our Liberal colleague, who was called away briefly, I have one question, if you don't mind, stemming from Kelly's questions.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Is this an NDP time slot?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

No, it's part of the Liberal time slot, so it's not yours, Mike, if that's a concern.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So there is a coalition, after all.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I just want to know about the elephant in the room that nobody is mentioning. When you talk about government procurement, there is the Buy American policy and the absence of any Buy Canadian policy.

The government is the largest single purchaser of some services, the construction industry, for instance. Would debundling enable more Canadian local contractors to avail themselves of government contracts without creating any kind of trade problems? Are there not ways to promote Buy Canadian simply by how we structure contracts without starting a trade war by declaration of Buy Canadian?

Is that something, on behalf of small and medium-sized enterprises, that you've dealt with and perhaps recommended to the purchasers of services?

[Pablo Sobrino]

First of all, and I think you're inferring it in your question, in Canada, we have a legal framework that respects all of our trade agreements, and we operate in that sense.

The other piece I would have to say is that we already source domestically. Over the average of five years, $14.3 billion of procurement has been run through Public Works and Government Services. Of that, $12 billion is already going through Canadian domestic procurements. So it is a large proportion already.

With regard to trade agreement provisions, certainly once you've reached the trade limit, it is open under NAFTA. It's open under the free trade agreement with Columbia. It is open to the various free trade groups we have in place.

I would have to say that the method we approach procurement with has a significant impact domestically in Canada. It is through low-dollar-value procurements and through specific procurements that are targeted for the Canadian market under various exemptions. That, to me, is an example.

I can't comment on the policy objectives, of course, but certainly with the structure we have, the net effect is that just under $12 billion of our purchasing is sourced domestically in Canada.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Is there anything in trade agreements, present or planned, that would guarantee access for American firms bidding on Canadian contracts?

[Pablo Sobrino]

I can't comment specifically on that. It is not my area of expertise.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Mr. McCallum is here.

You have a couple of minutes left in your time slot, John. I used up half of it. I asked some really smart questions on your behalf.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I am okay.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

The chairman was filibustering for you.