Government Operations Committee on April 24th, 2013

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

We're very pleased today to welcome the President of the Treasury Board as our guest and the supplementary officials he has brought with him to speak to and defend the main estimates.

As you know, Minister, this committee has taken a special interest in doing a thorough, comprehensive, robust analysis of the estimates, increasingly so with your cooperation and the cooperation of your team. So it is especially poignant perhaps that we have you here today in that regard.

I know there is also great interest in speaking to your officials this week, to examine some of the votes that are referred to us. But that will be in the second hour of the meeting.

I understand we have you for an hour, Minister. I won't take any more time. The floor is yours.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, President of the Treasury Board and Minister for the Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Chers collègues and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be with you today.

Hopefully my voice will hold out. I have a little bit of a head cold and cough that's been going around, so if I have to take a glass of water or something, please excuse me for that.

I have with me today Yaprak Baltacioglu, Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Bill Matthews, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, and Christine Walker, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer.

Today, in just a brief introduction, Mr. Chair, I'd like to talk about the estimates process, your committee's study, and how the improvements being made to the estimates process will lead to better parliamentary oversight of government expenses, if you don't mind.

I am also here, officially, to review alongside you the main estimates for 2013-2014, both government-wide and Treasury Board-specific. At the completion of my statement, we would be happy, of course, to answer any questions you may have.

Let me thank you for reacting to my initial suggestion of examining the estimates process by launching a comprehensive study that resulted in many substantive recommendations. I'm very pleased to report that significant progress has been made on many of the recommendations that were directed to the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Please allow me to explain. We found that recommendations 4 and 5 were related; that the reports of plans and priorities contained financial information by program for three previous fiscal years and for three future years, and that the reports on plans and priorities include an explanation of any changes in planned spending over time and of any variances between planned and actual results by fiscal year as available. That was the recommendation.

These recommendations are being addressed in the 2013-14 reports on plans and priorities by explicitly including information for three previous and three future years and including explanations of changes in planned spending over time.

In response to recommendation 7, cross-referencing new funding to budget sources, you will begin to see, in supplementary estimates 2013-2014, reference to the appropriate source of funds or budget for new programs that are appearing for the first time.

You will also find, in response to recommendation 12, hyperlinks to the Department of Finance's annual tax expenditures and evaluations report in the 2013-2014 reports on plans and priorities.

I'm happy to inform the committee that other changes in the main estimates 2013-14 that respond to additional comments from you and your colleagues are also being implemented. These include presenting departments and agencies alphabetically, bar charts and other graphics to provide a visual summary, and information on 2011-12 actual expenditures and 2012-13 estimates to date to provide context for the 2013-14 amounts. So there is certainly progress on all fronts.

Summarized spending by strategic outcome and program is also now included in part II of main estimates with details presented in an online table which is available in multiple formats including Excel. Information will be presented on changes to expenditures by program for spending authorities sought through supplementary estimates.

With regard to recommendation 2, that the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat transition the estimates and related appropriations acts from the current model to a program activity model, our commitment was to provide you with a model, including costs and a timeline for implementation. The model, costing, and timeline have now been submitted to your committee for consideration.

I have also instructed my officials to do additional work on the costing of this potential change to determine if there are ways to further drive down the costs. My officials would be pleased to discuss the work plan and considerations with your committee as we move forward.

The last and most exciting portion of the changes being brought forward is that of the online expenditure data base that I had the pleasure of launching earlier this week. This is a new searchable online data base that for the first time ever will consolidate all information on government spending in one place.

We're talking about everything from spending on government programs to operational spending on things like personnel and equipment.

We all know how difficult and time-consuming it can be to go through numerous complex financial documents to try to get a whole-of-government picture on what is being spent and where.

So I'm pleased to say that the days when Canadians and parliamentarians had to sift through stacks of public accounts like Indiana Jones looking for the lost Ark of the Covenant are finally over—and no stakes are involved; I just want to make that clear.

We have gone from what is almost an archeological expedition—digging through numbers department by department—to the digital age. What this means for most Canadians is that they now all have a more complete picture of how taxpayer money is spent.

And you, as parliamentarians, will be better equipped to do your jobs. I would like to offer that my officials come and provide you with a demonstration, as was done during the launch on Monday.

I'll repeat, for those watching at home, that this initiative is about increasing transparency in government, a commitment our government has continued to deliver on since day one.

On the matter of the 2013-14 government-wide main estimates, you will no doubt note that they reflect the government's ongoing commitment to finding savings and returning to balanced budgets.

In total, the government-wide main estimates provide information on $252.5 billion in planned budgetary expenditures for the 2013-2014 fiscal year. This includes about $87.1 billion in planned voted expenditures and about $165.5 billion in statutory expenditures.

As the main estimates show, we are starting this fiscal year on the right track, with a reduction in planned spending of $4.9 billion over fiscal year 2012-13. Last year the planned voted budgetary expenditures were $91.9 billion.

What's more, these planned voted budgetary expenditures show a decline over four years. This reflects the results of the government's cost containment measures during that period.

Moving to the statutory spending component of the main estimates, it has increased by a modest $5.5 billion. This increase is largely due to changes in the forecast of elderly benefits, the Canada health transfer, and employment insurance payments.

I will now turn briefly to the main estimates specific to the Treasury Board Secretariat.

This year the secretariat is asking for $5.66 billion in spending authorities. This includes $214 million for departmental activities and $5.421 billion for central votes, which support government-wide activities. Overall this represents a decrease in spending of $19.8 million over the previous year's main estimates.

The decrease and spending for the Treasury Board is mainly due to a $10-million decrease in vote 20, Public Service Insurance. This is related to savings identified in the 2008 strategic review, which were announced in budget 2009, at the sunset of the joint learning program; and a $9.8-million decrease in vote 1, Program Expenditures, which are directly related to the activities of the Treasury Board Secretariat as a department.

As we move forward, Canadians will see that we have treated and will continue to treat transparency and accountability as paramount.

Estimates reform, the online expenditure database and my appearance here today are all part of our continued commitment.

I'd be happy now with my officials to take questions on the 2013-14 government-wide and Treasury Board-specific main estimates.

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Minister, for those opening remarks.

Just before we go to questions, I should say on behalf of the committee that we're very proud of the work that we've undertaken in response to the original suggestion you made reference to, that the committee undertake a detailed analysis of the estimates process. While we have you here, as a committee I think we should tell you that we're very gratified that the government has seen fit to act on many of those recommendations.

In no small part I should point out one of our guests here today, the former vice-chair of the committee, Mike Wallace, who is perhaps one of the biggest fans of the estimates process you'll ever meet; it's almost like a hobby for him. He's now the chair of the justice committee, but he was here when we undertook the original opening of this study. We found it a very gratifying and educational experience that I hope leads to meaningful and lasting benefit as we move forward.

Anyway, having said that, there are members who are very interested in speaking to you about your main estimates.

First, for the NDP, is the Treasury Board critic Mathieu Ravignat.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and your staff, for your presence here today.

I'd like to start with your opening comments with regard to your commitment to transparency and open data. The reality is that there are few arks of the covenants left to find.

As you know, your government has exceeded an unprecedented amount of $550 million in advertising in the last six years. You're priding yourself on openness, but you refuse, for example, to disclose the amount that the government spent on advertising during the Super Bowl. Why?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Certainly, I can tell you in broad brush strokes that I am aware that government advertising has declined by, I think, close to 46% over the last few years. There is still need, however, to advertise, and the reason for that is that there are many government programs that affect people personally, whether they are changes to the budget that affect their tax position or there are tax credits available to individuals or families that were unavailable before.

So there is still a need to convey those changes in budgetary decisions to the public, as well as other things that we do that I'm sure are uncontroversial such as public health bulletins, those kinds of things. If there's a new bird flu influenza outbreak or what have you—

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

That's all well and good, but as you know, Minister, all departments and agencies must post all contracts over $10,000 on their own respective websites. So when will this Super Bowl advertising contract be posted on the Human Resources and Skills Development website?

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of clarification.

I'm trying to follow online. I don't have the hard copy, but we're here to talk about the main estimates, and I was wondering if the member could say which page he's specifically referring to, so I can look at it online. I have the electronic copy.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Well, I don't know if that's a point of order, Ron, but it would be useful, I suppose.

We did ask committee members to send in the types of questions that they might be seeking information on, so that the departmental officials at least would have those chapters ready to open and to comment on, but I don't know if Mr. Ravignat did that or not. But we're talking about the main estimates, and any question associated with spending as it pertains to the estimates is in order and allowed.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

So could we get a sense....Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I don't have that with me, so we'd have to return with that. Perhaps my secretary has some more information.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu, Secretary of the Treasury Board Secretariat, Treasury Board Secretariat]

If I remember correctly, there was an order paper question and Minister Ambrose responded. That's as much as I can remember, and I believe mention was made that the amount was being disclosed.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

As you know, Treasury Board does have its role to play in approving advertising expenses, but let me move on to something else.

Again, on the issue of transparency, I'd like to know if additional resources have been placed in this particular area. Access to information requests are up, and only 55% of the requests were responded to in under 30 days in 2011 and 2012. So, of course, while the government is vaunting open government, access to sensible information is crucial. So what explains such a significant increase in complaints? Also, why have you taken so long to establish a pilot project for online requests? What specific amounts did you invest to ensure that access to information is effectively dealt with?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you for the question. Indeed, you're quite right to reference the online processing procedure, which is increasingly available. We want to make sure that it works appropriately for citizens. I think we're doing it on a pilot project basis in the high-volume areas first, like Citizenship and Immigration as an example. Then once all the bugs are ironed out, of course it would be available more broadly.

The fact of the matter is that the number of access to information requests increases exponentially. Having said that, we are striving to meet the demand as quickly as possible. The online process will be very helpful in that regard, including an online payment option. To the extent there are lengthy delays, a lot of that has to do with the fact that some access to information requests are quite complicated and involve multi-departmental responses. Departments have to check with other departments, collate, and make sure that the response is complete as well as accurate.

We are looking at examining ways that we can perhaps—

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you. That's actually quite reassuring. Of course, I haven't heard any figures with regard to what you're actually investing in to ensure that these requests are dealt with in an efficient manner.

But I'd like to move on to something else—

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Can I just answer that question directly? I'd make the point that if you can make your back office simpler and leaner, you can actually spend less money and do more. That's the kind of thing that we're looking for.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

But it hasn't become simpler: it has become more complicated to get access to the information that is needed. The backroom stuff is not working.

The other issue about open data is that Canadians have to trust that the open data that's available will not breach their personal information or data. We've learnt today just recently that 85% of breaches go unreported to the Privacy Commissioner.

Do you have any plans to invest in making sure that the Privacy Act, for example, is brought up to date? We're talking about legislation from 1983. Will you commit today to send these privacy breaches to the ethics committee to study?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Let me say a couple of things. First of all, the study to which you refer refers to breaches that occurred over a 10-year period, some of which occurred during the currency of our government, but some of which were not. I would tell you that certainly after 2006, we've instituted a number of measures to protect citizens' private data more robustly, including veterans' privacy rights charter, and more broadly, a mandate that requires each governmental department to protect the data and to report any breaches of that data.

I think we have a much more robust system of protection now than in the past. Having said that, let me agree with my honourable colleague that any breach of data, when it occurs, is a serious matter and should be treated as such by governmental officials.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

We're well over time, Mathieu. Thank you very much.

Next for the Conservatives, Ron Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses.

Minister, it has been a pleasure, and it's good to have our former vice-chair back and have his leadership in helping all of us try to understand a little bit more of the budgeting process. It's been a pleasure serving just over seven years as the member of Parliament for Kelowna—Lake Country, and the last six-plus months within the government operations subcommittee.

I have a couple of questions for the President of the Treasury Board, specifically with regard to concerns on the environment. All of us around the table agree on the need to have a balanced approach and responsible resource development. On the 2013-14 main estimates, the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency is requesting $14 million more than its 2012-13 main estimate. Among other things, it's an increase attributable to the funding for the Major Project Management Office, of $7.4 million, and for aboriginal consultation.

Mr. President, could you enlighten the committee as far as which initiatives will be funded by the increase in expenditures of $7.4 million?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Sure. I might defer to my officials, but let me just state initially in answer to your question that a number of these things are primarily demand driven. That is to say that more large projects are seeking to get through the system. That obviously requires more personnel and resources that are expended in order to ensure that there is a timely response to those kinds of situations. I'm assuming that this is the case in this case.

Mr. Matthews.

[Bill Matthews, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

If I could add to that, Mr. Chair, the member is quite right. There is an increase here over the previous year's main estimates and the funding for the major projects office was actually renewed during the last fiscal year, but not in time for the main estimates. So that's why you see the increase this year. The funding was actually part of supplementary estimates (A) in the previous fiscal year.

I would refer the member to the website for the assessment agency. It actually has a wonderful website with all the projects they're undertaking, both planned as well as those that are complete, and they update that on a fairly regular basis. So if there's interest in tracking those projects, the departmental website is the best place to do that.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Fabulous.

I know you're a keen supporter of implementing technology and making information more accessible to all our constituents, and as I mentioned I think that's a laudable goal for all of us.

Could you maybe enlighten us on how we're using technology to find efficiencies within the budget, for example by video conferencing.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I think that's a good point, Mr. Cannan, that technology can be our friend in the sense that when we look at ways to do better for less, there are now numerous examples that can be applied. For instance, we are constraining travel budgets for departments, and that is found in economic action plan 13.

At the same time we are funding both telepresence and video conferencing options for both the public service and various agencies and offices. We are fully convinced, based on initial findings, that it will be easier to conduct meetings at a far more efficient cost to the taxpayer using this approach.

So that's a good example of using the technology that is available now and continues to improve in order to find savings for taxpayers, while at the same time improving efficiency, improving morale, and getting the job done for Canadians.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

And keeping the service levels the same or increased. Thank you.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Indeed.