Evidence of meeting #120 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Now, let's go to the minister. First, congratulations on your French. I can never say it enough that I appreciate your hard work in improving your French.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you. Thank you very much for your patience with my French.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Patience, you're right.
We are very concerned when we hear the minister talk about another example to have better transparency in the government, because we all remember that one of the first pieces of legislation the government tabled was Bill C-4, which killed some transparency tools for workers. This is why we are very concerned, but we will see what the government tables, and we will pay careful attention to that.
Madam Chair, I am very happy that we can discuss with the President of the Treasury Board in such a direct manner.
In our point of view, the President of the Treasury Board is the chief custodian of Canadian tax dollars. Expenditures of $330 billion must be subjected to very serious scrutiny, and it is up to the President of the Treasury Board to ensure that each dollar is wisely spent.
My first question is quite clear. Does the minister agree with spending $8.2 million for a hockey rink in front of Parliament? Was it a wise spending of public money, yes or no?
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I'd like to start by reacting to your comment on Bill C-4.
We inherited a difficult situation with regard to negotiations with the public service, courtesy of the previous government. We are working very hard to restore a culture of respect towards the public service and its unions. We have negotiated collective agreements, which now cover 90% of public servants, in good faith. It is paramount to recognize the importance of our public service and its unions. We now have good relationships with them.
On the question of the specific investment made as part of Canada 150 by my colleague, Minister of Heritage Mélanie Joly, the Canada 150 rink is something that is contributing very significantly to the Winterlude festivities here in Ottawa. It's the 40th anniversary of Winterlude, until the end of February in fact. More than 120,000 Canadian visitors have had the opportunity to skate on it. There's ringette and sledge hockey. In fact, all Canadians can come to the national capital region and reserve their tickets to take advantage of this once-in-a-lifetime activity. We're celebrating a big deal. Canada 150 is something that is—
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
—truly special. It's not like some fake lake where you're not going to get to do anything.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
This is actually something that you can participate in and get good physical activity—
Liberal
Liberal
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Mr. Simms, did you not want the five minutes? Okay. We'll share.
Thank you so much, Mr. President of the Treasury Board, and thanks to your officials. That was quite a funny little end to the Canada 150 festivities. I won't go there.
I will go back to Phoenix, because as a member of the public accounts committee, I can say that it has been occupying and preoccupying us a great deal.
Going forward, I know that this item called “stabilization of the Government of Canada's pay system” is a chunk of the supplementary estimates (C). I know that one of the big items will be hiring or completing the hiring of the new pay experts that you need to get this done properly. There will be some IT expenses too.
How do we expect to get this resolved in the reasonable amount of time that our public service should expect it to be resolved in? By that, I mean less than a year, so that we don't drag this out for five, six, and seven years like Australia had to do in one much smaller instance. Do you think this amount will be sufficient to try to address this issue within that limited scope of time?
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you very much, Alexandra.
The IBM Phoenix pay system issue is one of the toughest ones, and I've served in cabinet in two governments. This is one of the toughest public.... Well, it's not just public policy. It is the execution issue that I have dealt with.
You mentioned the need to hire pay experts. Part of the challenge is that 700 pay advisers were let go prior to the system actually being operable and the new system implemented. One of the keys in this that you learn in terms of the future is that you don't gut the legacy system before the new system is operating. In fact, in terms of some of the people we are hiring, we're actually trying to bring back some of those legacy people, because they have invaluable experience and an understanding of the pay system on a department-by-department basis.
We have been working closely with the union leaders. In fact, we had a discussion with them again yesterday. One of the recommendations they've made, with which we agree, is that we need to put more people back in the departments, so we are working to that end. Yaprak can speak to some of where we are investing, but we're investing $142 million to recruit, hire, and train people across government.
Beyond that, it's important to remember that the IBM Phoenix pay system was conceived about a decade ago. The technology available then and the IT methodologies practised then are very different from those that exist today. While we work very hard to stabilize the existing system with departments across government, working with PSPC and OCHRO at Treasury Board, we also believe that looking at new approaches and taking a look at.... If this were a greenfield project today, if we were looking at this situation as it is today, unimpeded by the blinders that often occur in government around the tyranny of sunk costs—you're trying to make what you've spent money on work—if we were to look at this with fresh eyes, with a fresh team of people, using modern digital protocols and technology, we may find that there is a new way that can actually address this issue faster.
You need to take look at this in a two-track approach: continuing the work we're doing right now to stabilize the existing system, but also at the same time being open to completely new approaches that reflect modern digital today and that weren't even available 10 years ago when this system was conceived.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Minister. We'll go to the last five minutes with Mr. Deltell.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
I have a lot of respect for my friend and colleague the President of the Treasury Board, and for his skating abilities. He actually did not answer my question clearly at all.
For us, it isn't exactly nothing. Everyone in Canada knows that spending $8.2 million on an outdoor skating rink is senseless.
The minister said that it was part of Ottawa's winter festivities. In Quebec, we have the Carnaval de Québec. If building the Bonhomme's Ice Palace cost $8.2 million, no one would ever attend the Carnaval de Québec ever again.
I will ask a question again to the minister. He is an honest man. He is an honourable man. He can answer clearly. Does he think $8.2 million for a hockey rink is wise public-money spending? Yes or no.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Madam Chair, again, as part of the Canada 150 celebrations here in our nation's capital, this is an attraction that has enabled over 120,000 Canadians to skate and to bring their families, in the natural beauty of the Ottawa winter that we've all come to love and appreciate—
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Again, Mr. Deltell, this is not some fake lake that costs a lot of money and nobody uses. This is something that actually is a recreational location—
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Minister, why can't you answer my question clearly?