Evidence of meeting #128 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Yes, and we're moving within the same building.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
That has been decided? It has been agreed on, and it's going to happen?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Yes. The question of timing is always an issue.
At one point several years ago, when we were expanding, we actually rented a partial floor. We reconsolidated everybody on the one floor, because it's better for an operation to all be working together. Now, some recent growth having brought us to the limits of our current floor space, we've looked at the most cost-effective options to accommodate more people, and we will be moving.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
You estimate five more people, if I understand correctly? Is that your estimate, more or less?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Yes. Right now, in some cases, we are doubled and tripled up in offices. Sometimes, given the nature of what we do, dealing with extremely serious and sensitive issues, some modicum of confidentiality and privacy is highly recommended.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Yes. Talking about which, do you have closed offices for your investigators or is it an open plan?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
All of our investigators are currently in closed offices, and that is something we are trying to toe the line on, in terms of negotiating and dealing with policies and regulations, with respect to federal workplaces. We think it's essential that our investigators have the capacity to be in... it doesn't have to be a big office, but it should have four walls and a door.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Do they receive the complainants at the office too, or at least have face-to-face—
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Occasionally, we do. This week we had three interviews in our offices with witnesses or disclosures or alleged wrongdoers, but we're very flexible in that regard.
One of the issues around identifying the appropriate office space that took some, I won't say convincing, but some discussion, was being located in a regular government office building, with a commissionaire at the front desk, and having to sign in before coming to our office. This would be a huge disincentive to someone coming forward in confidence to make a disclosure, or to be interviewed, or even to get information from us. So the importance of being in a neutral and essentially anonymous space—
Liberal
Liberal
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
We've been successful in that regard.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Unless my colleagues want to take the rest of my time, I don't have any more questions.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
I have a few questions for you. You talked about the $40,000 that you are assigning to legal. Is it because you anticipate more people going to court or settling in court, or is it just that maybe because you're going from 87 to 147, you're projecting that that might be the reason? Have you done an educational campaign that tells people you're here, you are with teeth, you're not without teeth, and you're doing a good job?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
It's a combination of all those factors. The number of people coming forward is slowly increasing. The number of people asking for legal assistance is increasing. Also, I should advise, Mr. Chair, that this year we will be doing a formal evaluation of the legal assistance request program. We'll be happy to share those results with the committee.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
When you came before us last time, and then the tribunal came, there was this confusion with people who came before us to say that between the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner and the tribunal, the whistle-blowers don't know where to go and don't have any confidence.
Do you think you're building confidence within that group of people who are complaining?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
I'm certainly hopeful, based on direct information and direct communication that we have. Two of our last three case reports dealt with abusive behaviour in the workplace, and I think that's part of the reason our disclosures went up. You can imagine that disclosures tend to go up after the tabling of a case report.
We received really positive feedback. We got invitations from places like the Certified Fraud Examiners Association of Canada, and I've made two addresses to them now. The opportunities to go out and talk about our work increase, and the message we're providing is now based on an organization that has tabled 16 case reports before Parliament. It was much more difficult to tell people we were able to do our job when we had one or two or three.
Conservative
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you.
Noting that this is the first year you're projecting to spend your entire budget, and that you've been somewhat substantially under it in years past, it made me wonder how predictable your need is in any given year. If a substantial portion of this is going to the legal assistance program, that's very much complaint-driven, and I don't know if your office has existed long enough to have confidence in predicting what your traffic is going to be in the coming years.
How much faith do you have in your own guesses as to what your need might be in the future?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Mr. Chair, I would agree that things are not very predictable in our world. For example, we do not have the authority to go out and start an investigation on our own. We are an on-demand service, so that workload depends on the number of disclosures and complaints of reprisal we get in any year.
This year is perhaps a good example, with the increase in the number of disclosures that I mentioned. We can attribute that, as I said, to the fact we had some high-profile case reports. We've also created a new online disclosure form. We anticipated a spike, and we got that spike. Whether that's going to continue, I can honestly say I don't know.
You also make a very important point, which is that even though we know what came last year and the year before, and I say things like we think we have a stable intake of complaints and disclosures, that is based on a very short history of data, so it's unpredictable. I can't even say what the likelihood is that I will be back asking for money, but it's constantly in the back of our heads that we may have to do that, given the nature of our work.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you. That was my next question, your estimate of the odds of having that conversation when we get to supplemental estimates later on.
Like Ms. Mendès, I'm new to the committee and wasn't present for the study on this, so I'm not as proficient in the background.
What again were your intake numbers for the last year?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
I can list the three main ones that we measured. On the total number of general increase that we get, we had 265 in the past year. That compared to 218 the year before. Disclosures of wrongdoing was 147 compared to 81. That was the biggest jump in any number that we had. The number of reprisal complaints was 38. Last year it was 31. Generally, our numbers have been a general increase around the 200 mark, so 265 is a jump. Disclosures were between 80 and 100, so 147 is considerably higher. Reprisals, were between 30 and 40, so 38 is at the high end of normal.
Conservative
