Evidence of meeting #128 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc LeClair  Special Advisor, Métis National Council
Brian Card  Special Advisor, Métis National Council
Joe Friday  Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Brian Radford  General Counsel, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner
Éric Trottier  Chief Financial Officer, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, I think we'll commence now, even though we're missing a couple of our committee members. I'm sure they're close by and should be joining us very shortly.

With us today in our first hour we have representatives from the Métis National Council, Mr. Marc LeClair and Mr. Brian Card. In the spirit of full transparency, I should let all of my colleagues know that Marc and I have known each other for a few years now, and continuing on in that spirit of transparency, I should also say he normally kicks the crap out of me on the golf course. I won't let that influence me, Marc, in any rulings I may make today. Marc is one of the better golfers in Canada. Marc, welcome again.

Good to see you again, Mr. Card. Thank you for being here with us.

Gentlemen, you know the process, I'm sure you've gone through this before. We will give you 10 minutes between the two of you to make your opening comments. That will be followed by a series of questions from all of our committee members. The floor is yours.

April 26th, 2018 / 11 a.m.

Marc LeClair Special Advisor, Métis National Council

I'll start. Actually, I used to be one of the better golfers in Canada. Now I'm just a hack, like most others.

Thank you for inviting us back. I'm going to take you through some material that gives a little background on who I am and who Mr. Card is. We'll talk about something I've been championing for some time. It's a concept called “indigenous participation in the procurement process”. I want to make a few comments on the presentation by Mr. Wright, who was before you. It talks about the procurement strategy for aboriginal people and how well it's working, and I disagree with him on that. I'll talk to you about that. Brian's going to talk about procurement services and some suggestions he has for improving the procurement system.

I am Marc LeClair. I've been working in this town for the Métis Nation for nearly 30 years; I'm sort of long in the tooth in that. I also do a lot of work with the Government of Canada. I've won a lot of standing offers with the Government of Canada. I know the procurement system pretty well. I've done procurement systems for companies like Manitoba Hydro. We just finished a procurement process with Enbridge on Line 3. I did the procurement policy for VANOC, the 2010 Olympic committee. We're specialists in the procurement area.

I'll let Brian introduce himself now, before we go on. I don't know how self-deprecating he is, but Brian's been working the procurement process for a long time. He's just written a book, The Inner Circle: How it Works at Public Works. He knows that system better than anyone else. I teamed up with Brian because we were bidding on a bunch of things. I know how difficult it is to work within the procurement process.

Brian, why don't you introduce yourself?

11 a.m.

Brian Card Special Advisor, Métis National Council

My name is Brian Card and I am President of The Procurement Coaches. Before I start, I can honestly say I broke 100 twice playing golf, so I'm quite proud of myself.

I've spent the last 30 years coaching and working for large, small, and independent companies, putting together RFPs for provincial, municipal, and federal governments. At one time I had over 85 supply arrangements across Canada, so I understand how procurement works at pretty well all levels of government. I have written a book called The Inner Circle: How it Works at Public Works. This is sort of a guide for individuals who are struggling to get their foot in the door and win government contracts. It's a positive book to show them how to fast-track and to give them confidence to work for the federal government.

Today, I'm here on behalf of Marc. He requested any suggestions that I might have on how we could possibly fast-track or meet the minimum requirements for the aboriginal community to make further inroads into the federal government.

11 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Marc LeClair

In Rob Wright's presentation, he said things are working pretty well, that we have this vehicle that was brought in by the Liberal government, by the former mayor of Sudbury. He brought in this tool, the procurement strategy for aboriginal business, and it was consistent with what we've been doing in other areas of the country. We created tax zones for regionally challenged areas like Cape Breton. Then we moved away from the tax system a bit as an economic development tool, and we started creating these agencies. We created FedNor, Western Economic Diversification Canada, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, and so forth.

This procurement strategy was along the same lines, but it was focused in on federal procurement. It was supposed to be that where a contract was directed, or the benefits of a contract were supposed to go to indigenous communities, it was mandatory to use that PSAB requirement. Beyond that, it was voluntary for other departments. We created a bureaucratic system in order to promote it. I think there are four to six people who work for that outfit out there. They track results, or they claim to track results. It's usually really about three-year-old data they track. It's like the employment equity we report on. There's always this patting on the back that we're doing so well, but actually based on the overall numbers, they are doing half as well.

If you took the percentage of the indigenous population as a percentage of the Canadian population, you have 4% or 4.5%. In our procurement stuff, which, as the Government of Canada, we control, we're looking at about 2%. We're doing about half.

When I came to the committee last time, I talked about all this work going on on Parliament Hill, and the opportunities to indenture so many indigenous Canadians in the trades. We've struggled in the trades area, and we're not there in the percentage we should be. Since then, we have EllisDon and PCL that have the construction contract for Parliament Hill. It's going to be a six-year project. We're going to have the Supreme Court coming, which is another $2-billion project. We've just seen the results of West Block. You come to West Block at lunchtime, and there are all those guys streaming out of there, but there are no indigenous people working there. We have this opportunity to create all of these masons, etc.

You have a situation where the contracts awarded now on Parliament Hill.... We had this in Manitoba. Manitoba pre-qualified on the hydro project. We had a $7-billion project from hydro. They pre-qualified five companies. We went to Manitoba Hydro and said, “None of them are required to do anything for indigenous people.”

We then did what we have done at the federal level before. We put in a minimum indigenous participation requirement. In the case of Manitoba, it was 15%. All five of the pre-qualified bidders had to come to the Métis and the first nations in Manitoba and figure out how they could get 15% of the overall value going to the indigenous population, either through jobs or subcontracts. Then Manitoba Hydro would hold their feet to the fire in the contract process, and put penalties in if they didn't meet those requirements.

It worked, and we have just done the same thing with Enbridge on Line 3 in Manitoba. Enbridge, to their credit, have done it across the board on Line 3. They have all of these pre-project commitments to indigenous people, and they put it in there. In fact, in the oil and gas industry, it's standard practice now, but in the construction industry in Canada, it's not. You have the big guys—PCL, EllisDon, and all these guys. There's no corporate requirement for them to do anything, and they don't have the indigenous component, maybe because much of the business is from Ontario and Quebec.

We have an opportunity to use the federal spend to drill out indigenous benefits. It can be done by putting these minimum requirements in. It's important that it be in the minimum requirements, because sometimes the stuff is really special.

I'll give you an example. In the Olympics, we tried to get the Olympic committee to put some minimum requirements on or to put a set-aside. Then it came to hockey pucks. There's only one company that makes hockey pucks and it's in Czechoslovakia, so it doesn't fit. It's same whether we're building ships or fighter jets. But those companies buy other stuff, and they have other business lines. Even if we put the minimum requirement on, they could at least lease the real estate, buy the supplies, etc. There's a way to do it.

Every time we've introduced this concept to big companies, there's an initial push-back, but then after they say, yes, they can do it because they are not self-performing all of it.

I'm going to let Brian speak. I spoke too long, but Brian is going to talk a little bit about—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Could we get you, Brian, to wrap it up in no more than a minute or two so we can get directly to questions. I know that's normally where the information transfer takes place.

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Brian Card

Okay.

From my standpoint, over 30 years, winning government contracts for many people is a marathon, not a sprint. As an example, there are basically 26 different government-procured vehicles people have to understand. There are six regions across Canada. It's very complex.

I have some recommendations. I don't have time in a minute to wrap them up. I don't know how you want to handle that. Do you want me to try to give you the 30-second...?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I would ask you to maybe do a very brief executive summary. But in terms of all of your recommendations, if you could submit all of those to the clerk, that will help form part of our final report. Your suggestions and recommendations would be very much appreciated.

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Brian Card

Okay.

In sum, what I discovered and what I'm recommending to Marc is that.... In many cases, the government is going out for multi-million dollar contracts and they're only inviting one or two firms. What I'm saying to Marc is if the aboriginal community can submit a compliant bid, they should be allowed to bid without going through all of the applications that you have to go through. In other words, I have examples of different procurement vehicles where there are hundreds of millions of dollars going to one or two firms without realistically being competitively bid. That's my recommendation, and I have examples.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We'll go directly into questions.

Monsieur Drouin, seven minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Thanks, Mr. LeClair, for coming back here.

Mr. Card, it's nice to see you as well.

We've heard a lot from witness testimony that RFPs are too long, they're too prescriptive. It's one of the issues we're trying to solve. I'd love to hear your opinion on how, if we're going to reduce the size of the RFPs and make them more outcome-based as opposed to prescriptive, we would ensure that we allow indigenous participation in that.

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Marc LeClair

On the government side, the process has to be simplified for sure. But with simplification there's another problem, which is then you're going to get too many bids. There's a balance to doing it. What I'm finding from the contractor is that if we just put in some minimum requirements for indigenous participation, it will work itself out.

When I met with the government six months ago, I asked them, do you still have the minimum indigenous content template? I told them, [Inaudible-Editor]we lost it. Can you send it to me? We use it only in select cases.

Brian, do you want to add to that?

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Brian Card

Yes.

You're asking a very generic question: are the RFPs too long? I've been looking at RFPs, like I said, for 30 years. Across Canada we check a couple of hundred sites a week. I don't find them too long. I find them basically set up so that very few can respond. You have to be pre-qualified, you have to fill out oodles and oodles of applications, and that's where the complication comes in. Most Canadians are cut out of the bidding system.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Yes, it is a generic question, and probably it's based mostly for those in the defence and IT industry. But witness after witness has complained about the fact that rather than asking them what the problem is, we're prescribing to them what the solution is, which I think is what you've just mentioned.

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

We're weeding out the others, as opposed to—

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Brian Card

In a 300-page RFP, 90% of it is a template.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Yes.

Mr. LeClair, you've mentioned Manitoba Hydro that you've worked with, and you've included that minimum indigenous participation. I missed your percentage. What was the percentage?

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Marc LeClair

It was 15%.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Was that 15% essentially either jobs or subcontractors?

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Marc LeClair

That's right. Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Were there any criteria other than that in the 15%?

11:10 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Marc LeClair

We also included a quality plan. You had to meet the minimum, so that was mandatory, but then they were graded on the quality of the plan. If the participation was more in project management, let's say, it would get graded better than if you just had straight labourers.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

What if there wasn't capacity? Were the companies willing to work with indigenous, either companies or individuals, to build that capacity? If there were no masons, would they train masons?

11:15 a.m.

Special Advisor, Métis National Council

Marc LeClair

That's a good question. I'll give you a concrete example. With respect to the claims processing contract that's behind the non-insured health benefits—the billion dollars that Health Canada spends—there are hardly any companies in Canada that do that, and there are no indigenous companies.

We put in a 20% minimum, and those companies met that through employment, through the call centres, through leases, etc. There's an example where indirect benefits can answer the mail for the contractor.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you.

On the PSAB, I know you've heard great things about PSAB. We're not hearing the same things, and it's the way PSPC would measure.... We've heard that they do participate, so they are on the supply arrangements, but they don't get selected. Are you hearing the same thing in your—