Evidence of meeting #131 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Right. However, the Treasury Board is seeking approval immediately for this $1 million without a plan, without a breakdown.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
We would still need to go to the Treasury Board for a submission. What the Treasury Board has sought is a central vote. That allows us not to wait for future supplementary estimates to be able to do the work. As soon as we have that approval, we can actually implement the initiative.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I realize that, but Parliament is going to pre-approve $1 million without a plan and without a real estimate of what the money is going to be used for.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
I think your question is better posed to the Treasury Board. Your question is around vote 40—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
But it's your money.
What is the $1 million going to be used for? Can you give us a breakdown?
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
I can't give you a breakdown as we have not yet—
Conservative
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
I do not have information on that.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Wow, and that $1 million is not in your departmental plan, either.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
That's right. That was in the budget after the departmental plan.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
How will you measure an outcome for it if it's not in your departmental plan? How will you plan an outcome for that $1 million if it's not in your departmental plan?
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
When we do a Treasury Board submission, we'll be asked for justification of the costs, which would be up to $1 million. I want to be clear that it could be a different amount that's lower than that. That is how it generally works with the Treasury Board. They'll challenge the cost. They'll ask for that breakdown, and part of the Treasury Board submission will ask for—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
The requirement is to have the money in your departmental plan to show the justification, but also to show the planned outcome of the $1 million. We don't have the planned outcome of that $1 million yet because it's not in your departmental plan.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
It's not uncommon for departments to have items that come in after the departmental plan is done, and those items still have outcomes that must be—
Conservative
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
Outcomes still must be reported on, regardless. When we do our report at the end of the year, we will explain costs related to that, as we would do for any other costs that come up during the year. Using last year as a proxy, our amount in the main estimates was different from our final estimates because there was additional funding that was sought throughout the year, and we still have to report on that at the end of the year.
Conservative
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
That's because at the time of the departmental plan's writing, it was not approved in the federal budget. Therefore, it wasn't part of the plans.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Your departmental plan came out at the same time as the estimates, which came out shortly after the budget. The budget came out before your departmental plan, but you didn't have it in your departmental plan.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
The departmental plan was published around the same time, but the due date for signature—
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
It came out at the same time as the estimates, after the budget.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
It did. That's understood. However, the departmental plan was due to the Treasury Board sooner than that. As a result, it did not have unapproved budget items. I would imagine that would be the same for any federal department.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I appreciate that. I'm pretty sure you're put in a difficult position, but again, we are overseeing and approving money before it even gets to the Treasury Board process. It looks as though for this $1 million dollars it's going to be the reverse of that process.
Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
It's being sought by the Treasury Board, and it will be allocated by the Treasury Board to departments.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
In your departmental plan, you have this: “PCO will assist with building a strong middle class by...[w]orking with provinces...for the development of...policies that foster the growth of the middle class.”
One of the policies, of course, is the pan-Canadian carbon tax. The Parliamentary Budget Officer says it's going to cost the economy $10 billion. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation says it would cost $2,500 per family. The University of Calgary says it would be about $1,100 per family.
You're responsible for assisting with building a strong middle class, so I put the question to you: How much will the carbon tax cost per family?