Government Operations Committee on May 10th, 2018

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes, I would say that.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I want to get to table A2.11 from the budget. There's $653 million for PSPC, including $307 million for stabilizing future transformation of Phoenix and $275 million for real property repairs and maintenance. That $653 million is a lot of money. I'm curious as to why it's not in your departmental plans.

[Marty Muldoon, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Administration Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

It's simply a timing issue. They are in the main estimates of the government, but they're—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The departmental plans set out the results that we expect of the department for the taxpayers' money. So $653 million of taxpayers' money can be given without any oversight, and now you're saying because of the timing it's not going to be put into the departmental plans for Parliament, parliamentarians, or taxpayers to see what we're getting for that money.

[Marty Muldoon]

We're able to publish the departmental plans with the main estimates that are available to the department. Those are budget 2018 numbers and are not in our main estimates. Therefore, they can't be captured in the plans beyond any minimal recognition of them, because we don't have the articulation of the plans.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What is the plan for the $275 million for the real property projects, the $275 million you got into the budget? What are the details of that? What is the money going to be used for? What are the results you expect to achieve from this?

[Marty Muldoon]

We are preparing the business case to go Treasury Board to lay out all of those details, and at that time, we would have all the articulation behind these numbers.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So you don't have that information now.

[Marty Muldoon]

Not in the time to prepare the departmental plans.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, that is our issue with table A2.11, vote 40. You're asking us to approve $653 million, without any results posted as to what you expect taxpayers to get for that $653 million. We just heard your department saying that it hasn't devised a plan of what that money is for, but we, as parliamentarians, are expected to approve this money. Do you not see an issue with that?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I appreciate what you're saying. We're working really hard to align these processes better. What I understand the situation to be, quite frankly, is that it's not in the departmental plan.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

However, aligning the issue and taking away—

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

We know what that money is targeted at.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But we just heard that you don't have the budget done up and you don't know what you're going to get for—

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

What we just heard was that it's not in the plan because of timing and that we're focusing on a Treasury Board submission, but I'm sure Mr. Muldoon can tell you what it's for.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Regardless of the the timing, do you think it's correct to expect parliamentarians to approve $653 million for what is going to be basically a blank cheque, because we've heard that you don't have planned results for that, you don't know what the money is going to be spent for, and you don't have the time? We've just heard that you haven't had the time to develop it to get into this mix, but apparently we're supposed to rubber-stamp $653 million of taxpayers' money when you don't have a plan.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I think what Mr. Muldoon was saying is that we are working on the Treasury Board submission. We know what we want that money to be spent on, and he can elaborate on that. He was focusing on the plan in the Treasury Board submission.

Would you like to clarify, Marty?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What is the money going to be spent on?

Please give us the detail of what that $275 million will be for and what the planned results will be, and the planned outcomes. If you have that information, why is it not in your departmental plan?

[Marty Muldoon]

You're not being asked on behalf of PSPC to approve the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

This is money for PSPC. We were told very clearly by Minister Brison that the minister can come and explain that.

[Marty Muldoon]

Correct.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What is the $275 million for, and what are your planned results for that? How much of that is going to be for staffing, and how much is for operations? If you have all that information now, why is not in the departmental plans?

[Marty Muldoon]

We have two years' worth of temporary short-term funding expiring. That is the reason you see our main estimates having a reduction in this space for the program integrity for our real property assets. It's been a well-documented case that's been to this committee numerous times in our supplementary estimates—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But why is it not in the departmental plans?

[Marty Muldoon]

—where we've sought the money to return to the department to continue to provide vital investments in the many buildings that we operate on behalf of the public service across the country. We've successfully been named in budget 2018—