Evidence of meeting #132 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phoenix.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Les Linklater  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Marty Muldoon  Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Administration Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Michael Vandergrift  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Marie Lemay  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Ron Parker  President, Shared Services Canada

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Ladies and gentlemen, we've had some excitement in the previous committee and so we have had some delays in starting our own.

Welcome to the committee. It is televised. Thank you.

In the first hour today, we have the Honourable Carla Qualtrough, Minister of Public Services and Procurement. Accompanying her, we have Deputy Minister Marie Lemay, Associate Deputy Minister Michael Vandergrift, Associate Deputy Minister Les Linklater, and Marty Muldoon, the CFO.

From Shared Services Canada, we have Ron Parker, CFO Alain Duplantie, and Graham Barr. Welcome.

Minister, you have some opening remarks. You have 10 minutes max, please.

May 10th, 2018 / 11 a.m.

Delta B.C.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough LiberalMinister of Public Services and Procurement

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that this is a tough day for members of the House of Commons and families and friends. I offer my condolences. We all have heavy hearts and I want to acknowledge that it's a difficult day for all of us. Please accept my sincere condolences to Gord Brown's family, friends, and members of his caucus.

I am pleased to appear before you as Minister of Public Services and Procurement and minister responsible for Shared Services Canada to discuss the 2018-19 main estimates. Joining me here from PSPC are Deputy Minister Marie Lemay, Associate Deputy Ministers Les Linklater and Michael Vandergrift, and Chief Financial Officer Marty Muldoon.

Here from Shared Services are the President, Ron Parker; Alain Duplantie, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services; and Graham Barr, Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy.

Both organizations fill critical roles in support of federal government operations and the delivery of programs and services to Canadians.

Allow me to begin with Public Services and Procurement Canada, which is requesting $3.2 billion in the 2018-19 Main Estimates.

This includes $2.54 billion for property and infrastructure, including the parliamentary precinct and support for the G7 summit; $215 million for payments and accounting; $122 million for government-wide support programs; $117 million for the purchase of goods and services; and $235 million for internal services.

Allow me to begin with an update on the work of PSPC and Phoenix. Last week, I was at our pay centre in Miramichi to announce the expanded rollout of the new pod approach, following a very successful pilot. Under this approach, pay employees are set up in teams that serve specific departments, allowing them to gain expertise and build relationships with their client departments.

This pilot shows that, from December to March, pay pods reduced the backlog of the three pilot departments by 24% overall, and the number of employees with pay issues dropped by 11%. In comparison, the numbers elsewhere remained relatively stable.

What's interesting is that the pod idea came from the employees themselves. In Miramichi last week, I felt a degree of optimism among staff, an appreciation that their voices are being heard and a sense that the challenge before them can actually be surmounted.

Our approach going forward is to continue to engage with the people who know best: pay centre staff, the unions, and the employee users of Phoenix.

Pay pods are but one of the measures we announced in November to stabilize the pay system. For instance, we're increasing capacity. Since starting with 550 employees when Phoenix was launched, we have reinstated the 700 positions eliminated by our predecessors and further invested to nearly triple the number of staff processing pay at the pay centre and in satellite offices across the country. We have added about 200 public servants at the client contact centre. They now have direct access to Phoenix so that they can provide public servants with real-time details about pay issues.

Budget 2018 provides $431 million in support of these efforts. Our most recent dashboard shows progress. Our backlog is down by 5,000 transactions from last month, and with minor fluctuations, it has steadily declined since January 2018. As pay pods are expanded, we expect this decline in backlogged transactions to pick up speed. To all those employees who have been affected, I promise that we will resolve their pay problems and, over time, restore their trust. Beyond Phoenix, PSPC is leading other important work such as the acquisition of critical equipment for the Canadian Armed Forces.

Under the national shipbuilding strategy, the first large ship, the offshore science and fisheries vessel, is complete and is expected to be delivered to the Canadian Coast Guard later this year. The Royal Canadian Navy's first ship, the Arctic and offshore patrol ship, is undergoing final assembly.

In addition, this year, we will select a preferred bidder for the design of the Canadian surface combatant, which will form the backbone of the navy.

In addition, this year we will select a preferred bidder for the design of the Canadian surface combatant ships that will form the backbone of the navy.

This work matters. Contracts awarded under the shipbuilding strategy are contributing $8.9 billion in GDP and creating or maintaining almost 9,000 jobs per year. We look forward to providing regular updates on our progress.

Shifting from sea to sky, to meet the air force's interim needs, we continue to work with our Australian counterparts to finalize the purchase and delivery of F/A-18 aircraft and spare parts beginning in 2019. The open and transparent competition that we announced last December to permanently replace Canada's fighter fleet is also well under way. Both PSPC and ISED have held industry engagements. These meetings are critical to ensuring that the procurement process is effectively designed and that Canadian suppliers are provided with opportunities to participate.

As the government's central purchaser, the department is simplifying and streamlining procurement. It is seeking ways to leverage the government's purchasing power to not just to buy but buy better.

We are increasing opportunities for diverse suppliers, such as women, indigenous peoples, persons with disabilities, and visible minorities. We are also making sure that our procurement supports other important goals, such as the fight against climate change.

I especially want to reduce the red tape and other barriers faced by small and medium-sized enterprises trying to sell to the government. While SMEs already account for 80% of our contracts under $1 million, and over 30% of our contracts over $1 million, we want those numbers to grow.

I know this committee has been studying this topic, and I look forward to your report and recommendations. We are already making great progress. Since last July, suppliers have been able to submit bids electronically, which is faster, greener, and more efficient. By the end of this year, we expect at least 70% of bids to be submitted this way.

Over the longer term, PSPC is adopting an e-procurement solution that will simplify contracting for both the government and our suppliers, and make bidding more accessible to the visually impaired. We will take the time to do this properly, and ensure that lessons from the development of Phoenix, many years ago, inform our approach.

Here in the parliamentary precinct, our collective objective remains to ensure a seamless transition of operations from Centre Block to the new House of Commons in West Block this summer.

While final IT, multimedia, and security devices are being installed and tested, we continue to work closely with our parliamentary partners to mitigate any risk of delay.

Turning briefly to Canada Post, just last week I announced the appointment of five new members to the board of directors. They will join the recently appointed chair, Jessica McDonald, to continue efforts to implement the renewed vision for the crown corporation and its priority of service to Canadians. Critical to renewal will be the focus on building more collaborative relationships with employees, communities, and other stakeholders.

Let me now speak about Shared Services Canada. Through the main estimates, Shared Services Canada seeks $1.5 billion in funding to continue providing modern, reliable, and secure IT infrastructure services in support of the digital delivery of programs and services to Canadians. This amount includes an investment of $17.3 million related to the G7 summit in La Malbaie, Quebec, to improve cellphone coverage and access to high-speed Internet in the region, legacies that will remain long after the summit ends.

To support the Government of Canada's digital vision, Shared Services Canada will modernize and enable cloud services, while sustaining its core operations, and implement business tools to secure and deliver digital services.

In March, I noted here that SSC has begun brokering public cloud computing services for unclassified data for the federal government. Many customer departments are now using these services for a range of IT needs. This year, the department will begin to offer cloud services for classified data up to the Protected B level. SSC will also continue to migrate departmental workloads to the public cloud or to new enterprise data centres where appropriate and based on direction from enterprise governance. SSC recently opened its third state-of-the-art data centre in Ontario to help it better protect government and citizen information and IT systems.

Budget 2018 proposes over $2 billion over six years to help Shared Services Canada address evolving IT opportunities and needs, including cybersecurity threats, and to deliver the kinds of digital services Canadians expect. This funding marks a reset for both SSC and government IT.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I look forward to your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Ayoub, you have seven minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here with us today.

Minister, you mentioned the Phoenix pay system at the beginning of your remarks. I know you are busy working on this issue. You told us that you were in Miramichi last week.

The backlog has been reduced, which is mildly encouraging, but there is still a lot of work to be done. I know you are aware of that.

Could you tell us more about the issues that may arise this summer with the hiring of summer students and the renewal of collective agreements, in whole or in part?

What solutions do you and your team have planned to deal with these issues?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Thank you for your question.

Although I'm optimistic by nature, I must say that there are still problems that need to be resolved. We are slowly chipping away at the backlog of transactions. Of course, we may encounter unforseen challenges.

The creation of pay pods is an excellent measure that has helped us make progress on the Phoenix file. Using that approach, we have reduced the backlog of transactions by 24% in three departments. The idea for this approach came from employees in Miramichi. We listened to the ideas of those who are working on this system and it has paid off. Obviously, we will have to add the collective agreements to the system.

We are also hiring more students this summer. However, we can assure you that things will go better than they did last summer, just as things went better last summer than they did the summer before. Progress is being made, even though it is taking time.

I hope that the creation of pay pods will speed up our progress. This continues to be a challenge for the public service.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

In recent months, the government wanted to hire former payroll experts and personnel who had been laid off. We are talking about the 700 employees that were laid off by the previous government.

Where are we at with hiring?

Is the government still hiring more people or are we at full hiring capacity?

Do we have enough employees to do the work?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

It's an ongoing process.

Mr. Linklater can give you more details on that.

11:15 a.m.

Les Linklater Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you for the question.

In January, we hired 325 new employees. This month, we hired 60 more, and we plan to hire 90 more next week. There are also international students who work at the Université de Moncton. We are still in hiring mode. We will continue to hire until we have a sufficient number of employees to help our department and the other departments and agencies.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

How much training are these employees being given?

11:15 a.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Les Linklater

It depends. If the employee has pay experience, the training takes less time and we can focus more on how the system works. However, those who are new to the public service need to be given good payroll training and training on the system.

Generally speaking, we are hiring people who do not have experience and giving them approximately 12 weeks of training.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

A few months ago, some employees were not being paid. I hope there are no more cases like that. It always makes the headlines when someone hasn't been paid in six months.

I know we have talked about this a number of times. Those types of cases have been resolved. The people who were not being paid were supposed to tell their managers. Are there still any exceptional cases like those or has that problem been resolved?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Those sorts of cases are very rare now. The most common problem has nothing to do with basic pay, but with retroactive pay for acting positions.

Mr. Linklater, could you provide more details on that?

11:15 a.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Les Linklater

Approximately 20 to 40 people out of 300,000 are not receiving their basic pay each pay period. That being said, we have a mechanism to inform the departments and agencies so that they can make arrangements with their employees to ensure that they have money to live on. That resolves the situation for the next two weeks or the next pay period. We have a mechanism to prevent the sort of crises that happened in the beginning.

As the minister said, there are still problems with other payments.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you for your answer. I'm fine with that for now.

The last time, we discussed a mechanism to help constituents in members' ridings. A mechanism had been implemented quite some time ago, but it was being improved.

Can you give me an update on that? What general information is being given to MPs so that they can help the constituents that come to see them?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

The process helped MPs a lot. Please excuse me, but I'm going to give the numbers in English.

In March, we received 590 cases from MPs; in April, we received 400 cases from MPs, which obviously was a decrease of about 190 cases. All emails received through these channels have been acknowledged within the 10 business days that we said we would acknowledge them.

Of the 400 cases, approximately 34% were processed with responses provided to the MPs' offices and an expected date for the resolution. Approximately 35% of the escalations were related to payments for retroactive salary adjustments or allowances, such as extra-duty pay. Approximately 25% of the escalations were related to terminations—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Minister, I have to cut you short.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Okay. To sum it up, it's pretty good news.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

Mr. McCauley, you have seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Welcome back. It looks as if you've drawn a bigger crowd than the Ottawa Senators normally get.

I have some quick questions for you, so I'd appreciate brief answers. When are we going to hit the so-called steady state for Phoenix?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

I've learned not to provide dates. As I've said, we're looking for progress. I hear you, but if you look, three departments, representing approximately 10,000 employees of the 300... saw a decline of 24% over four months.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

If you haven't a date, that's fine.

I have a letter here from TBS that states, regarding those employees who are affected by a Phoenix overpayment, we're not going to require them, or go after them, so to speak, to repay the overpayment until all the pay problems are addressed. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

That is correct.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks. I just wanted to confirm that.

I want to just get back quickly to Phoenix. Over time, we've seen the Gartner report, which we're told was presented but wasn't given to the minister; the director general of HR report, noticing all the issues with Phoenix, which wasn't passed on to the minister; and the project checklist talking about the backlog to be cleared, which wasn't passed on to the minister and CFOs. As well, we hear that IBM has come out and said that it actually told the deputy minister not to go ahead.

In light of all those warnings to the department that apparently were never passed on to the minister, in terms of ministerial oversight, what steps are you taking to ensure you actually are getting the proper information with all these other projects we have going on: $80 billion for shipbuilding; the $15 billion or $20 billion F-35 project; and everything else? We've seen repeatedly the information not getting to you or Minister Foote. What steps are you taking to ensure we're not getting a repeat of that?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

Quite honestly, that is the biggest lesson we've learned from this, and one that could arguably be of gravest concern. When you're sitting in the position of minister, the decisions you make are only as good as the advice and information you have before you. We've taken a number of steps, right from the Prime Minister, creating the ministerial working group. We have a DM oversight committee at the ADM level. It's horizontal across departments. We have DG working groups, and we have union-management working groups.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Are we confident that those that are overseeing the shipbuilding are communicating issues properly?