Government Operations Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, I call the meeting to order. Welcome.

Before us today we have representatives from the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board and the Privy Council Office.

My understanding, Madam Fox, is that you do have an opening statement.

Colleagues, with your consent, Mr. Shea has said that rather than reading his opening statement into the record and taking up about 10 minutes of our time, we will, if you agree, just enter his opening statement into the minutes and that will allow more time for questioning from all colleagues around the table.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

They are deemed read.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

They are deemed read.

Do I have your consent for that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

[See appendix—Remarks by Mr. Matthew Shea]

Thank you.

Thank you for your kind offer, Mr. Shea.

Madam Fox, it's good to see you again. Welcome back to our committee. You have certainly been here before, so you know the drill, and you'll understand that you have about 10 minutes for an opening statement, after which we will follow with questions from all the committee members.

Madam, the floor is yours.

[Kathleen Fox, Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I can assure you I'll be definitely less than 10 minutes.

Mr. Chair and honourable members, again, thank you very much for inviting the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, or TSB, to appear today.

My two colleagues with me have a wealth of experience with our activities.

Let me introduce Jean Laporte, our chief operating officer, and Luc Casault, our director general of corporate services and chief financial officer.

Given that officials from the Transportation Safety Board, the TSB, have appeared before this committee twice in the past year, I believe that you are familiar with the TSB and its mandate. I will therefore proceed directly to the reason for our presence here today, the 2018-2019 Supplementary Estimates (A).

The 2018-19 main estimates show TSB appropriations of approximately $27 million and statutory contributions to employee benefit plans of $3 million, for a total of just over $30 million. Add to that the $2.9-million permanent increase that we're seeking in the supplementary estimates (A) and you get a total of $33.5 million to ensure the ongoing sustainability of the TSB's program.

Allow me to briefly provide some context.

Over the past few years, the TSB has faced a number of growing funding pressures that made it increasingly difficult for the organization to deliver on its mandate and achieve its performance targets. The TSB has not received any new permanent funding since 2003.

Since then, public expectations and the complexity of the TSB's work have changed significantly. The TSB has also faced increasing costs that add up year after year. In 2017-18, the TSB reached the point where the integrity of its program was put at risk due to insufficient resources.

Last fall, the TSB put forward a request seeking approval of interim funding in the amount of $1.8 million to address its immediate program integrity issues for 2017-2018, while a longer-term solution was identified.

The funds we seek today will provide financial stability to the organization for the next few years; however, this will not increase our capacity. These funds will help us sustain the current number of investigations that we conduct, the number of outreach activities and the timeliness of our investigations, meet performance targets and improve the availability of information to the public.

Put another way, that's the first substantive and permanent funding increase in 15 years, and it is less than 10% for an organization that has pushed tirelessly for transportation safety from coast to coast to coast.

On that note, and in closing, last week on October 29, the TSB published Watchlist 2018. This is our list of the key issues that need to be addressed to make Canada's transportation system even safer. A brochure featuring the Watchlist issues has since been emailed to all members of Parliament, and no doubt some of you have read it. If you have questions about the Watchlist today, we'd be very happy to answer them, as well as any questions you may have about the supplementary estimates.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Ms. Fox and Mr. Shea, and thanks to both of you for your economy of words.

We will go into direct questioning now, starting with a seven-minute round of interventions.

Go ahead,, Madam Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Chair, could you tell me when I have two minutes left so that I know how to manage my time?

Welcome to all of you.

I have some questions regarding the Privy Council. The Privy Council is asking for $47 million in funding for the missing and murdered indigenous women. Is this above and beyond what you asked for in your last budget, or is it a continuation? What work has been done, and how much are you proposing to do or carry out with this amount of money?

[Matthew Shea, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office]

It's a mix of both of those things. It is additional funding.

You may recall that an extension was granted for six additional months for the important work this commission of inquiry is doing. They requested with that approximately $38 million in new funding. The amount we have here includes an additional amount from previous years that was reprofiled. That was part of the initial $53 million. That was not spent. It has been reprofiled. The total amount now is $92 million between the original money and this new money that's been brought in.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Are you confident the inquiry will complete its report by April 2019?

[Matthew Shea]

It's not for me to say. One of the things I've said to this committee before is that we operate at arm's length from the commission of inquiry. We provide them support. They're absolutely independent. I would suggest that you look to the press releases and the various discussions they've had. They recently granted some interviews in which they talked about the progress and the work they're doing.

I will say that we work very closely with them and I know they are continuing to work towards the deadline to ensure the work is completed in time. We enjoy an excellent relationship with them.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I ask because I want to understand, from a governance perspective, the relationship between PCO and the board of inquiry. How does one follow progress or how does one follow the money to ensure that we are getting return on investment, that it's getting the results it is supposed to get?

[Matthew Shea]

Our role is much more an administrative role. We are not there to decide if this is a good expenditure or a bad expenditure or the best return on investment. We're ensuring that they follow the Financial Administration Act and all applicable policies. If there's an expenditure that we have concerns doesn't potentially fit one of those criteria, we'll talk to them.

I will say that my experience has been that when we have raised concerns, they've worked very closely with us to address those concerns and ensure that this was done properly, but as far as their actual progress and the number of sessions they hold goes, whether it be for institutions or individuals, that's completely within their purview to decide.

We're very, very focused on ensuring they have independence. That's a tenet of the way it was set up—to ensure that independence.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Under the supplementary estimates (A), 2018-19, some of the funds were requested under vote 1 for the Prime Minister's residence. Is this the one on Sussex Drive, and is it undergoing any construction? If so, what's the progress on it?

[Matthew Shea]

It's the vote definition that includes the Prime Minister's residence. There is no money being sought here for the Prime Minister's residence. I think this is a common question we are asked almost every time we come for supplementary estimates or main estimates.

There is a very clear protocol as to how that work happens. PSPC and the National Capital Commission deal with the actual renovations to and work on the residence. Our role involves simply the staff that work there and the expenses directly tied to the Prime Minister.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

Madam Fox, I was looking at the monies that your department is asking for. I was looking at the Transportation Safety Board accidents. In my estimation there have been about 25 close calls, loss of control, collisions in water, or collisions on terrain. How do you manage it? Is the amount of money you're asking for for personnel to help you determine the safety processes or to report the accidents? What is the money going to be used for?

[Kathleen Fox]

The funds we're requesting are primarily to top up on our salary budget, which over the years has grown. Even though the number of personnel hasn't grown, the salary costs have grown as a result of collective agreements, among other things. It's primarily to top up the salaries so that we can pay our personnel to the end of the fiscal year and ongoing, but it also allows us to normalize our expenditures in O and M for things like travel, training, and asset replacement. We've had to borrow from that budget to supplement our salary budget over the years. Then within that, we divide up those resources among our multiple programs, including aviation, marine, pipeline and rail.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

When you talk about $2.5 million to maintain program integrity, what exactly do you mean by program integrity?

[Kathleen Fox]

Specifically, it's our ability to conduct investigations, to complete reports on a timely basis and to conduct our outreach activities, including things like issuing our Watchlists.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you need more resources, because you also have...? In 2018 the board highlighted a 50% increase in the numbers of investigations. Are you looking for more money to help you prepare this and analyze it or give us more information?

[Jean Laporte, Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board]

Essentially we're asking for $3.3 million. That will allow us to maintain the current level of activity. The numbers you're referring to from 2017-18 are what we believe is a reasonable level of investment and effort in terms of fulfilling our mandate. We want to maintain that going forward this year and in future years.

We can always use more money and do more, but there are diminishing returns after a certain level. What we've asked for is to sustain what we achieved last year and meet our performance targets—not to increase the number of investigations, but to improve the timeliness, because we haven't met our timeliness standards for the last number of years.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McCauley, you have seven minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Welcome back. It's appropriate that you're almost here on Halloween, Ms. Fox, because I find your reports quite scary and alarming, especially your comments on addressing your recommendations.

Mr. Laporte, you just mentioned that the $3.3 million or $33 million would be enough money. I'm looking at your departmental plan, and it's showing percentage of investigations completed within published target time: Aviation not met, marine not met, rail not met. I don't mean this as a criticism, because I know we haven't funded you properly, but is that enough money if you're clearly not being able to meet these investigation deadlines that you've set out in your targets?

[Jean Laporte]

With the additional funds, we believe that we will be able to meet most, if not all, of those targets and to sustain the level of effort that we've undertaken. I think part of the challenge of the past years has been balancing the resources available with the workload.

We've also undertaken a number of steps to improve the efficiency of our process. We've implemented a new occurrence classification policy. We now have short-form reports to expedite on non-complex investigations, for example, to get them quickly out of the way and focus more on the bigger ones, the more complex ones. Essentially we believe it's a reasonable amount of money.

We initially asked for $3.3 million. What's included in here is $2.9 million, as you can see in the supplementary estimates. We did not quite get the full amount that we asked for. We are still discussing that shortfall with the Treasury Board Secretariat.

The money was supported by the minister, but when we got to the Treasury Board submission stage, there's an old Treasury Board policy that requires 13% to be set aside for accommodation, so that's where that $300,000 plus change has gone. It's gone into the PSPC reserve fund for accommodation, which we don't need because we're not increasing staff.