Government Operations Committee on May 1st, 2019

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Thank you very much to you both for your testimony here today.

I just want to follow up on that last point very quickly, Mr. Grabowski, and just ask the question.

Do you think it would be helpful, when a veteran applies for a job and isn't hired, if they were able to contact the department and ask for a reason or what they might have done differently on their application in order to see more success? At what level should that happen?

Would it be helpful if they could do that on the initial screening process if they didn't screen through? If they weren't contacted for an interview, would it help if they might be able to contact the department as to why they didn't screen through, and so on, through the process? Could you give us a sense of how feedback might enable veterans to increase their odds at success in future applications?

[Terence Grabowski]

I think certainly any feedback is better than receiving nothing at all. Certainly, constructive feedback of where you went astray or what you were not strong enough in would only help, because a veteran's understanding of where they may have gone astray in a process can only grow their capacity from there.

My understanding is that there is, through Veterans Affairs Canada, some ability to take career development courses in terms of resume building, interview techniques and that sort of thing, which is very helpful for those who are making the transition from a military culture into civilian life in the public service. Any feedback, certainly from my perspective, would be greatly appreciated. To grow and learn from it, to ultimately become a successful hire, would be great.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

You said that you learned about the priority hiring for veterans on your own initiative and through your own personal network. Is there a moment when you're leaving the forces when it would be appropriate to communicate to veterans that this is available to them? If they are considering a career in the public service, they should know about that program. It just seems like an odd situation to have the onus be on veterans to know that there's a priority hire program for them.

Is there a point in the process when it would make sense to have the onus on the forces and on government to ensure that veterans leaving the forces know that's an option for them?

[Terence Grabowski]

Yes, definitely. There's an old saying that you don't know what you don't know.

Back when I served and when I released initially, there was no such thing as a joint personnel support unit, JPSU. These units came to be certainly after my time. My understanding is that these units do explain and provide these types of services. To what extent, I don't know.

When I released, I had no idea that there even was a Veterans Affairs Canada. I was basically out cleared and that was it. I was sent back to Whitehorse, Yukon, where I originally came from. There wasn't anything in place at that time.

I firmly believe that it's incumbent on the Canadian Forces or the government to give as much information as possible so a retiring member of the Canadian Forces can make their best-educated and informed decision on the information that they have at hand.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I think I have a little bit of time left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have two minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I just want to ask Ms. Gibson something really quickly.

Earlier in this Parliament, we passed Bill C-81, an act to ensure a barrier-free Canada. In this latest budget, the government made a commitment to hire 5,000 people with disabilities over the next five years.

I'm just wondering, in order to make good on that commitment and in order to try to incorporate veterans living with disabilities into those numbers, what do you think is needed beyond Bill C-81 and beyond that commitment, in order to ensure that it's made real?

[Kerry Gibson]

I think it's a wonderful start. I think Bill C-81 is.... Technically, it's 27 years overdue. The U.S. had the ADA 27 years ago. Even then, they're still scrambling to catch up.

I think that a lot of this will be about reporting and enforcement and providing the tool box necessary for everybody to comply with Bill C-81. It's a lot to throw on people all at once. I live in Vancouver. Even in Vancouver, at a current budget, I believe it's 320 years before we have curb cuts throughout Vancouver in all places. There are all these little nuances of what the expression of Bill C-81 will be. I think it will be necessary to throw a whole lot of money at it in order to catch up.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

Thanks very much to both of you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie.

Colleagues, I'm still anticipating bells to start ringing in about five minutes. If that is the case, I think this will be our final intervention.

We're going to go to Mr. Peterson, please, for seven minutes.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's always nice to speak just before the bells are ringing. It's almost as if the angels are singing after hearing what I have to say, maybe.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

We'll leave that up to others to determine.

I want to thank the witnesses, both of you, for being here today. This is a very important study, and you are raising some important issues.

Ms. Gibson, I want to talk to you because I think your organization is tapping into what is going to be a growing circumstance in which veterans are coming back with either mental health problems or physical health problems upon their release. You mentioned that with the millennial generation there are probably going to be more occurrences of PTSD. They're more prone to those types of things. I think that just the general awareness of PTSD in society, our ability to diagnose it now and, to some extent, the destigmatization mean that there are going to be more cases of it, because now we're more aware of it and we're able to tell.

What trends do you see, or what sorts of tools should the federal government be using? Generally, we're speaking about how we can get veterans hired into the public service, but specifically, when we're talking about veterans who may have mental or physical health issues as well, I think it may be doubly hard for them to be hired.

How can we address those issues? What sort of role do you see your organization playing as an outsider to government that is able to give that advice and make some connections to the less governmental role, the role outside of government?

[Kerry Gibson]

From the private sector's perspective...?

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Yes.

[Kerry Gibson]

The private sector always leads by example from the government. It's not necessarily known to throw a lot of money at a situation or a shift without realizing, I suppose, that it's necessary. Within my own situation, with my own company, even just hiring women, period, I hire engineers and I fight to find female engineers. There are always obstacles to actually achieving this.

Yes, there has been a statistical spike in certain demographics such as millennials with PTSD, which makes it necessary to acknowledge that these things are a reality. They are part of our society and must be provided the means to integrate and to understand that these are not insurmountable obstacles, that there are tools out there. For instance, Israel leads in integrating the disabled into their communities. They have to. Their economy would fail if they hadn't. They provide the disabled with whatever tools are necessary to overcome their challenges so they can get back to work.

I think our government would see the economic benefits of having that intellectual capacity thrown into the workforce. Can you imagine all those people who aren't then supported by social services and all the benefits that can enable in our budgeting?

From a private sector perspective, I offer a lot of creative solutions in the work that I do. I am currently working on various files including equal pay and finding ways around the bureaucracy. I think the public sector has the ability to be a little more fluid where government has far more linear constraints. If there is some way we can work together to provide tools and mechanisms for the private sector to adopt C-81, for instance, I'd be fully on board to see that through.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I appreciate that. Thanks for the response.

I think C-81 is a step in the right direction.

I am fortunate enough to have an employee who's in a wheelchair, so I'm happy to be a sort of advocate for that. Mitch is here now. You can't see him because he's not on the screen but I can assure you he's a very eager and an efficient employee of mine. I'm happy to have him as part of my team.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

He's the brains and the looks.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

He's the brains and the looks behind the operation, absolutely.

Master Corporal Grabowski, thank you for being here, and thank you for your service to our country.

I think you're an example of what happens too often when releases come from the military and from defence. In my opinion, we need to get to a point where the transition from National Defence to Veterans Affairs is seamless. It clearly isn't, and in fact, it's probably more cumbersome than it ought to be. It probably trends towards cumbersome as opposed to seamless.

A lot of it, I think, is just information, awareness and sharing of information. Sharing of information, sharing of best practices and maybe just some talking between the two departments may go a long way to help overcome some of those obstacles. Do you agree with that assessment?

[Terence Grabowski]

I agree 100% with that statement. The more seamless and easier the process upon release for information, so much the better—definitely.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Do you continue to talk to your colleagues, your former military defence colleagues? Did some have better experiences than you or different experiences? Are there things that we can learn? Do some things work that we should be highlighting, or is everybody kind of in the same boat?

[Terence Grabowski]

In talking with colleagues, my view is that there are very few of them. For my peers from the Canadian Forces who are within the federal Public Service Commission, I think there can be improvement. Certainly with the JPSU, there's more information coming out all the time to veterans, but I think there's more that can be done to streamline the process.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay, I appreciate your service, as I said, and I appreciate both of you being here and answering our questions today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Mr. Peterson.

To both of you, thank you again for being here.

Master Corporal Grabowski, thank you for your years of service to our country.

Should either of you have any additional information that you think would be beneficial to our committee as we continue our study on the hiring of veterans in the public service, I would encourage you to send whatever recommendations or suggestions you have directly to our clerk, and I can assure you they will help form part of our final report.

Sorry for the difficulties technically, Mr. Grabowski.

With that, again, thank you. The meeting is adjourned.