Evidence of meeting #170 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hiring.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian McKenna  Director, Equitas Disabled Soldiers Funding Society
Jacques Fauteux  Director, Government and Community Relations, VIA Rail Canada Inc.
Matthew Harris  As an Individual
Emily Rowe  As an Individual
Ziad Nader  Director, Human Resources and Information, VIA Rail Canada Inc.
Kerry Gibson  President, EcoCentury Technologies, As an Individual
Terence Grabowski  Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

4:45 p.m.

President, EcoCentury Technologies, As an Individual

Kerry Gibson

There's been an increase in anxiety and triggers with that age group. It's been attributed to the lack of coping mechanisms they've acquired through upbringing and whatnot. As to whether or not that's entirely the case, I don't want to overgeneralize, but we have seen an increase. Perhaps it's an increase in reporting for those with acquired PTSD.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, it appears we have resolved some of our technical difficulties. I believe we have with us now, via video conference from Whitehorse, Master Corporal Terence Grabowski.

Sir, we apologize for the technical difficulties that affected us originally. You're here now and we are pleased to have you with us. I believe you have an opening statement. After you deliver that, sir, we'll go directly into questions.

4:45 p.m.

Terence Grabowski Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

First, I would like to thank the standing committee members and staff for the opportunity to appear today by video conference.

I feel I have a distinct and unique perspective coming from the north, specifically from Whitehorse, Yukon.

I'm going to speak today on behalf of myself as an individual, a veteran and my experiences trying to gain employment through the federal Public Service Commission.

I have expertise in both the regular and reserve force of the Canadian Armed Forces as a junior leader, with service over 10 years. Professionally, I have 22 professional years being in one form of the public service or another. Municipally, I worked with the Government of Yukon and with the Canadian government.

I've been a private and a master corporal in the military, a customs officer, a full-time police officer all the way up to an acting assistant deputy minister with the Government of Yukon. I feel I have a breadth of depth and knowledge, competencies, formal education, training and courses.

I think one challenge that modern-day veterans have is considering themselves, first off, as a veteran. It took me a long time to acknowledge that I was a veteran. I always thought about my grandfather who served in World War II, or those in Korea, or older persons who have served, as veterans. That can certainly be a challenge.

Are you a veteran? When that question is asked, you will probably find that a lot of the answers would be no. The better question probably is, did you serve? Have you served Canada? From that point, I would consider respectfully that people would say yes they have or no they haven't.

My experience applying online for federal positions is that it's a complex process. For veterans without any physical or mental operational stress injury, post-traumatic stress disorder, it can be a frustrating application process in and of itself. It's long and overly laborious. There's a lot of redundancy as well in the federal application process online. There are sometimes 10 to 12 steps, and I can get into that probably a little later.

Those with post-traumatic stress disorder like me find the application process very challenging. It can be frustrating so that at certain points you almost want to hit the close button in the corner of the screen and just walk away. Again, there is a lot of redundancy that I believe doesn't need to be there. That's definitely one consideration.

In the Yukon, my understanding is that there are approximately 250 federal public service employees. On the job board, I have what's called mobility hiring, but I don't have priority hiring because back when I released originally, there was no such thing as the Veterans Hiring Act. It is my understanding there were amendments in 2015.

Although I have mobility hiring and I can see now internal federal positions, there is very little in the Yukon. I believe there are lots of people who come to the Yukon for various reasons, who seek employment with the federal government and they retain their employment. Therefore, the opportunities, certainly from my perspective, at least in the Yukon, and it would likely be comparable to the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, are limited. Being here, there would be a desire for the Public Service Commission to look at how they can hire local veterans or those within the community.

I know that Veterans Affairs Canada certainly has an interest in hiring veterans, both former RCMP officers and military members. I know that there's a backlog of over 40,000 disability award and disability pension applications that need urgent processing. A fellow like me, as I mentioned, based on my experience, for whatever reason cannot get screened in to the very basic entry-level positions with Veterans Affairs Canada. That's one example. That can be frustrating.

I will finish quickly but I want to talk about about the redundancy aspect within the application process. One of the first steps is to upload your CV or resumé online. With a lot of work and craft, that is done, but further on in the process there's an additional education tab where an applicant can spend a lot of time updating or providing their educational background, which university or formal institution they attended, when, where, whether they were a graduate, what credentials they received. That's a second component within the application process.

One of the most frustrating experiences is the screening questions in and of themselves. They can be quite long and be asking for a lot of information that has already been provided. Again, this is separate from the resumé and this is separate from the education tab, which is full of information. These are almost a third step in the application process online where it says, “Have you graduated from a recognized post-secondary institution?” There are questions like, “Do you have experience as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces?”

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I'm sorry, my abject apologies, Mr. Grabowski, for interrupting.

I wanted to find out, because I didn't have the benefit of seeing your opening statement, how much longer your statement would be, sir. We have a limited time for questions, and I'm wondering if we can get you to, if possible, wrap up quickly, sir.

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

I will, very quickly. Thank you.

Again, “Have you graduated with a degree from a recognized post-secondary institution? If yes, please provide an example to clearly demonstrate where, when and what you did to obtain this experience.” There's just a lot of redundancy that can cause frustration.

Thank you very much. I would like to thank the committee for having me attend in person. Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, sir.

We'll now go to our seven-minute round, or a continuation of our seven-minute round, starting with Mr. McCauley.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm glad that we were finally able to beam you in from up north, and I appreciate the information.

Do you mind if I ask a couple of questions that you may have covered? You said you have 10 years of regular service and reserve service, is that correct?

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

Yes, sir, I have 10 years.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

What's the breakdown between the two?

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

I have three years of regular force experience and seven years of reserve force experience.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Have you left the reserves as well?

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

I left the reserves in 2007; however, I have signed up again as a Ranger in the north.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That's fantastic. Maybe in about another 20 years we'll be able to swap out the Lee-Enfields for you.

Obviously you mentioned the change about the priority hiring. I'm asking all the vets who are appearing before us about it. Some of the ones I deal with back home have served like you. Then they leave and then eight, nine or 10 years later they say they want to get into the public service but there's the five-year cut-off. Is five years too soon? Should it be 10, 15 or indefinite for a priority hire for either medical or non-medical release? Have you any thoughts on that?

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

Yes, I do. I think the five-year cut-off is too short. In August of last year I applied to Veterans Affairs Canada to try to qualify for priority hiring. I received a letter of rejection stating that I had been out five years from my original release date, and thus was not qualified.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

You served at least three full years, though, in regular service, did you not?

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay. My understanding is that medical discharge puts you at the very top. The next level of priority after that, ahead of all other equity hires, is if you have left honourably for any reason after three years. I would think you would still be eligible for that priority hire, not for medical discharge but the regular. Did that come up, or am I wrong about that?

4:55 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

No, I have to contact the Department of National Defence-Canadian Forces transition services to find out if I was entitled to priority hiring of my own accord. It was based on doing my own research and hearing about others who have certainly received priority entitlement hiring, but my application to Veterans Affairs was denied due to the five-year limitation.

I feel it should be indefinite, without any limitation, to allow them to have the opportunity to come to the top of the pile, if you will, at whatever appropriate time in their lives.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That's a good point. Because some of the feedback we're hearing at committee I'm also hearing in Edmonton. Issues, whether injuries or hearing loss, etc., are not necessarily popping up within a five-year period. Quite often you activate your priority and it takes more than five years to get through the process.

You mentioned you have applied for jobs with Veterans Affairs. Have you applied for other jobs within the public service? Because you mentioned you had gone online. Was that just for Veterans Affairs? I'm just curious about what else because we're hearing that different departments have different success rates in hiring. I'm wondering if it's systemic throughout our public service that they are not, perhaps, looking after it as well as they should.

5 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

I have applied not just to Veterans Affairs. There is no Veterans Affairs office in Whitehorse. There is Service Canada. I have applied to CIRNAC, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, Canada Border Services Agency. I have applied to be a member of the refugee protection division with the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. That's quite a number of different departments.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I can imagine that.

Are you getting any feedback? Perhaps they are not recognizing the skills you have developed, the training you received in the military. Perhaps they are stonewalling you, for lack of better words, or using that as an excuse.

I don't want to put words in your mouth.

5 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

I can't comment on being stonewalled but certainly when I receive emails that I am not accepted further in a process or a board has decided not to pursue me any further, there is no detailed rationale or reasons why I was unsuccessful. Again, based on my background as an acting assistant deputy minister, I have vast experience in budget, HR administration, etc.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it.

5 p.m.

Master Corporal (Retired), As an Individual

Terence Grabowski

Thank you, sir.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

We'll now go to Mr. Blaikie for seven minutes, please.