Evidence of meeting #173 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ron Rea  As an Individual
Morgan Gay  National Negotiator, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Baxter Williams  Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
Sandra Hassan  Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Gay, I can appreciate the concerns that the Public Service Commission or your union might have had with the priority service recognition and shift scheduling, but in 2012 that was available to them, and then in June 2018 you renegotiated. What changed? Why did it change? Do you have any idea of what the mentality of the union was at that time?

4:05 p.m.

National Negotiator, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Morgan Gay

Yes. I've been the union's negotiator for this group since 2007, so I was there in 2012. What happened was that from our perspective—I don't expect these folks to agree—we don't think the employer was properly applying the collective agreement. From our perspective, what was negotiated was that years of service in the Canadian Forces would count for the accrual of vacation time, meaning the amount of vacation you could access on an annual basis. This meant that if you were working in the public service, you were covered by the collective agreement, and you had spent time in the Canadian Forces, you were going to get a bump now in the amount of paid leave you could get in a given year.

That change that we negotiated got taken by the Canada Border Services Agency to mean that we're now going to change how people choose their vacations and change the definition of seniority. We filed a grievance. We were unsuccessful. Consequently, in the last round of bargaining, we modified the collective agreement to reflect the initial intent.

You know, the union has never taken the position that people with Canadian Forces service should lose vacation accrual; we support that completely. The membership took issue with what was being implemented—two separate seniority definitions. That was not what got negotiated, so we negotiated something different. That has now been reinforced twice by the membership through democratic means.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. McCauley or Mr. Deltell.

Mr. Deltell, you have five minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to your House of Commons.

First of all, Mr. Rea, I want to pay my respects to you for your service to our country, especially given the fact that you want to work for Canada instead of elsewhere. Through you, I want to thank all the people who serve our army, our country and our liberty so well, and who still want to work for us. I know it's not easy to address the medical release issue and I deeply appreciate you for doing that. On behalf of my colleagues, thank you for what you have done for this country.

My speaking time is limited. I would like to talk to Mr. Williams about the seniority that veterans are assigned.

Could you tell me who decided to negotiate the seniority of veterans and why some of their seniority rights were set aside? How were the negotiations that led to this decision conducted?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

Sandra Hassan

As Mr. Gay explained about the negotiation process, the alliance consults with its members to determine the priorities together.

Similarly, at the Treasury Board Secretariat, when we are preparing to negotiate a collective agreement, such as the one for border officers, we call on the department concerned. We look at the economic data and we consult with the department to find out what its priorities are.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I am referring specifically to the seniority rights of veterans. That's what this is about. It is a matter of determining how their seniority can be recognized.

It is always more difficult to express this in French. In English, the expression is so beautiful: “civil servants.”

Civil servants and military people serve our country so well. There is no better way to identify them than as a “servant”, and now they're trying to work in civil society, in the fonction publique. Civil servants and members of the military are so close because they serve our country.

Let me ask my question again, very specifically.

Could you tell me who told you that the seniority of veterans should be negotiated and evaluated and when were you instructed to do so?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

Sandra Hassan

We're not able to tell you now who gave those specific instructions.

However, we can tell you that, as Mr. Gay pointed out, the original collective agreement had a provision on this issue. A change was made as a result of the grievance.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Madam, I fully understand that Mr. Gay is speaking on behalf of his union. He is doing a very good job, by the way.

I want to know what's happening on the other side. I am talking about the Treasury Board Secretariat. I want to know who decided to negotiate, what was negotiated and when.

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

Baxter Williams

As you know, the union proposed the change. We rely on our negotiators to determine which proposals must be approved to reach an agreement with the union. In this case, it was recognized that the change was a priority for the negotiations to be resolved. In this process, the decision was to accept the union's point of view.

Does that answer your question?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

First, I would like to thank you for the quality of your French, Mr. Williams. My thanks also go to Ms. Hassan. That being said, with all due respect, I am not convinced that I have been properly informed.

When you say “the decision,” whose “decision” was it?

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

Sandra Hassan

He wants to know the exact person who gave you instructions to forego that provision at the table. I'm saying that we don't have the exact answer today to that specific question.

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I don't want the name, by the way. I want the title or the group from which this order or, rather, this indication came. We're not talking about an order. Are we talking about the civil servant or the office of the ministry?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I'm afraid we're completely out of time.

If I could make a chair's intervention, if you could supply a title through our clerk, it would assist us greatly in the study we're just about to complete. We would appreciate some assistance in that regard.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

Sandra Hassan

We will.

We will provide you with the answer shortly.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.

May 15th, 2019 / 4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thanks to all the witnesses for their testimony.

Mr. Rea, I'd like to thank you for the great service you've done for our country, specifically choosing to stay in Canada. We are all proud Canadians and hearing statements like that truly brings tears to my eyes. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

You said you have applied for 30 positions—I'm sorry I don't know the numbers—and it took almost one day per position to fill out the application. How many years of service have you provided to our country, sir?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ron Rea

I provided 21.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

As far as military experience goes, how many courses or specific training have you had over those 21 years?

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ron Rea

If you look at this binder, which is double-sided, I probably took four courses a year. I thought when I joined the military that I wouldn't have to go to school again, and it turns out that I learned more in the military than I ever did in high school.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

In my calculation, you've taken about 84 courses on average.

4:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ron Rea

At least.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Did those 84 courses yield any type of degree or certification?