Evidence of meeting #173 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
I didn't receive a degree, but a diploma in business administration. As well I completed the officer professional development program with honours in 1997. That is a university accredited program that officers in the Canadian forces typically take.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
The reason I'm taking this line of questioning is that I had an opportunity to talk to some of the other witnesses about the number of courses they're taking. If you look at a four-year degree program of 10 courses per year, we're talking about 40 courses, and after four years you have a degree. That is becoming a base for a lot of civilian qualifications. Yet you have over 84 courses. That's a double degree in my book.
Help us. What would your recommendation be to us around equivalency? How do we draw that map that could say these numbers of courses in these fields have been taken? These could be the equivalent to a type of degree or diploma, and then probably some minor courses could be taken during the six months, and that hopefully would be able to ease your veteran's transfer into civilian life.
As an Individual
That's an outstanding question.
When a member is released from the forces, they go through a very rigorous release program. It would not be difficult for the people who are conducting the release to look at.... When I was in, it was called the 490 alpha—a very detailed list of all the courses you ever took in the military. It would not be difficult for the person who's conducting the release to sit down with a partner from a university and ask what this would be worth and translate it. I did take this to the University of Alberta and they just looked at it and asked what I had been doing for the last x number of years. I said learning. I asked if I could turn this into a degree.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Would it normally be the case manager who worked with you to help with that?
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay. I've got about 45 seconds.
As part of the military you get top security screening. In your opinion, why is it taking so long to go through security recertification?
As an Individual
That's another great question.
When I left the military, I was given a piece of paper that said I had top secret security clearance. When I went to the RCMP they ran me through another security clearance. I did another interview. They ran me through another security clearance. Then I went to another agency and they put me through.... The RCMP must have been sick and tired of seeing my name coming through for security clearances because they were constantly asking. All they had to do was punch in my name and say I already had it and ask if anything had fundamentally changed in my life and I would have said no.
Conservative
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Mr. Rea, again, thanks. I appreciate it. I'm stunned at your notebook of qualifications, and yet these can't seem to be transferred over to public life.
I understand that you're involved in some veterans groups back home. Have you heard from these other vets about anything similar to the challenges you've been facing?
As an Individual
Oh, absolutely. For instance, a friend of mine who did his qualifications for civilian life was finally able to convince them that because he was a SAR tech leader of a unit he was able to get his bachelor's degree in emergency management. He then went on to do his master's degree. He wrote his master's degree and successfully completed it, with three other search and rescue technicians. However, when it came time for him to actually be employed, they said that because he didn't have a francophone profile he could not be hired.
The unfortunate thing for search and rescue technicians—and I'll be specific on this point—is that we cannot take French-language training, even though pretty much all of us wanted to be bilingual. The government wouldn't allow us to do so because of our operational requirement to not leave the unit for any amount of time.
On the one hand, he got his master's degree and had this great education, but he couldn't utilize it and get into the Canadian government because he didn't have his bilingual profile. He said, “Well, I'll take the bilingual profile—just send me to school for six months.” They said no.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
They're remaking the film Catch-22. I think they could involve some of this.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
It's beyond ridiculous.
We've been hearing a lot again about recognizing the skills that you've picked up in the military. In all of your applications.... I think you mentioned that you've applied for 20 different jobs in the public service.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Thirty jobs.... Is it completely black and white between the skills you've developed and have recorded in your book there and what the government has listed? We've heard from other vets that they believe some in the public service are using that as an excuse to not hire. For example, someone who has driven a tank was told they weren't qualified to drive a shuttle bus because they didn't have the right licence. Do you feel that this is being used and that they're purposely not recognizing the binder full of qualifications that you have there?
As an Individual
Oh, absolutely. They're completely overlooking what the skill set is and then trying to figure out how this applies in civilian life. Most of my qualifications are civilian qualifications. When I apply online, they ask over and over again to please list this, this and this. You write it all out and then they don't transpose everything from your resumé.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I know that you left the service about 10 or 11 years ago. Before you left, was there any training or counselling on how to translate your skills to have them be recognized in the public service for applications or anything like that? Or was it just “you're on your way out, so goodbye”?
As an Individual
Yes, they show you the door, but vocational rehab grabbed on to me and took care of me. From the military standpoint it was, “Okay, you're being 3B released, there's the door, see you later and here's all your paperwork.” SISIP took care of me, mostly, after that point.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay. Thanks.
I'm going to switch questions to you, Mr. Williams and Ms. Hassan. As the employer for all of the public service, what should Treasury Board do to address this issue that our vets have of qualifications being recognized in the public service?
I have to ask you this as well. What is your exact role? What is your job description?
Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
My job description is executive director of strategic compensation management.
Conservative
Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
It has an element of it, in that it involves negotiating and basically establishing salaries and terms and conditions of employment.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay. How can Treasury Board get involved to get this issue fixed? They have all these skills from the government to be recognized on the other side of the government. Someone has to take the reins. Veterans Affairs shows up and points a finger at someone else. PSPC shows up and it's a matter of, “Well, someone else should do it”. It's everyone else's problem. No one is in charge.
Treasury Board is the ultimate employer. Should this come as a directive from Treasury Board to get this addressed?
