Evidence of meeting #173 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
I think there is a carte blanche labelling of all veterans as having PTSD, especially with the war in Afghanistan, and all the veterans who came back.
I worked in domestic operations, strictly in Canada, saving the lives of Canadians throughout my entire air force career. Yet when I went to an interview, I knew as soon as I said, “I am a veteran,” the immediate thing that came into the panel's mind was that I must be at risk of PTSD, which I am not.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
You've spoken about the public service not recognizing the many skills you've developed over the years with the forces. Could you expand upon that? I only have about 45 seconds, but could you give us a bit more information?
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
What are some of the skills that you've picked up in your time in the military that are not being recognized in the public service?
As an Individual
For instance, as a search and rescue technician, my primary responsibility as a very high-end paramedic—level 2—with some doctor's skills that could be used in the field.... If I had to parachute into a plane crash, and didn't have access to telecommunications with a doctor and a front-line hospital facility, I would have to go on my training to save the patient's life. This was a high-end skill set that all search and rescue technicians were given.
That's just one example. This binder I have on the desk here is filled with every skill I've ever acquired through the military, as well as all of my evaluation reports and everything else. When I bring this into a job interview, people ask what it is, and I tell them that it is my body of work. If they want to ask me a question regarding my resumé, it's right there, as proof that I actually did that.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Unfortunately, we'll have to move on to our next intervention.
Mr. Masse, you have five minutes.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I'm going to continue on that theme, but switch over to questioning Mr. Williams and Ms. Hassan.
With regard to the medical discharge of someone like Mr. Rea, what is recognized by the Treasury Board and in the collective agreements that we have? What does the military recognize as a medical discharge, and how does that equate to employee evaluations? Are there any understandings or memorandums of understanding that you have with the military for those skills and abilities, and also a medical discharge?
Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
In the context of a collective agreement, they apply to existing employees. The question around medical discharge would arise more in the staffing decision, which is external to the negotiation process.
If you look at the nature of a collective agreement, which is seeking to define pay, hours, scheduling and other specific terms and conditions of employment, the concept of medical discharge doesn't enter into those considerations.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
What we do consider is the time that a member has served. That's the key feature when we're looking at bridging them into the public service.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Doesn't it seem a little incomplete? Has there been thought about that, though, in terms of reciprocity, or at least some type of parallel? Has there been work done? If you're recognizing the time, then you're recognizing that there's latent ownership and value there. The mere fact that they have a medical condition related to their experience in employment in one capacity or another under the Government of Canada....
I guess this comes from my background. Before here, I was an employment specialist on behalf of persons with disabilities in the workplace.
What has been done to assume some sense of co-operation, of understanding that there might be some medical issues, or a medical discharge, but it's done through a formula and it's done through a process? How does that apply to our negotiating of other agreements, especially when you're now actually considering some type of recognition of time in service?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are other forms of recognition that are not in the collective agreements.
We're here; we're in charge of the collective bargaining. There are other groups that do the staffing and do have specific programs at the PSC, for example, for priority placements of former members who have served in the reserve or in the forces. There has also recently been the creation of a position of a deputy minister who is now in charge of disabilities. Ms. Yazmine Laroche was appointed in the past months, and her role is exactly that.
However, in the collective agreements and the terms and conditions of employment, we don't have specific measures addressing that issue.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Mr. Gay, because of that hole, then, you and your members are left with coming up on the fly for current agreements in how to deal with that lack of a full policy that has evolved, for one reason or another. It's not a fault; it's where we're at right now. That's why your members are doing a plebiscite, because there's a gap between the two in terms of public policy. Is that not correct?
National Negotiator, Public Service Alliance of Canada
As Sandra just said, what we bargain for is people who are working for the government now, not how they come into the government.
We've made proposals in bargaining. We have a proposal on the table right now to deal with people accessing leave so they can continue their military service. There are different things we've put on the table. However, with respect to who gets hired into the public service, we haven't bargained language. Technically, under the legislation, that's not something we deal with in collective bargaining.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
No, and I don't know how you can, because they're not even part of your responsibility yet. You can't just bargain on behalf of employees five or 10 years in the future.
National Negotiator, Public Service Alliance of Canada
If they're not paying dues, we can't bargain on their behalf.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
C'est moi. It's “Ratansi”.
Mr. Chair, what are you doing?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Madame Ratansi, we had a slight switch here. You're up for five minutes.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Thank you, everyone.
Mr. Rea, I was impressed that you were able to transition from the military to the private sector quite seamlessly. Could you briefly explain how you did it? What was it that the private sector looked for in you?
Everyone who we have listened to was trying to get into the public sector, but those who went into the private sector got an easier ride than going into the public sector. Therefore, I'd love to hear your story.
As an Individual
Okay. In my case what happened was that when I was advised by the medical authority that I was going be released under 3B medical, suddenly the wheels went into motion. SISIP contacted me and said, “You are now eligible for the vocational rehabilitation program. Would you like to take that?” Then they explained how it works. For six months, I am still attached to the unit in which I'm serving. However, during those six months, I can go and find employment elsewhere. I can pick up a phone and say, “Excuse me, Company X, Y, Z, would you like to hire me for six months? You don't have to pay me. It would be like an on-the-job training program. I just show up for work every single day and you train me on a skill. At the end of the six months, if you're happy with my service, you can retain me and put me on as an employee. If not, you can tell me thank you so much and have a nice day.”
In my situation, I went to work for West Edmonton Mall. I called them because I was very impressed with their security program. I thought they looked very professional. I happened to be visiting my children in Edmonton at the time, so I approached the management there. I asked them if I could become a security agent for the company, which I would use as a stepping stone to find what I considered to be “real” civilian employment. They flew me from Winnipeg. I was serving at the survival school in Winnipeg at the time. They flew me to Edmonton and put me up in a hotel—the whole nine yards. They brought me in for a job interview.
After the 30-minute to one-hour interview, they told me that, yes, they'd really like to pick my brain as a critical thinker, and they wanted to bring in someone with a military mindset, but they didn't want to hire me for the position I thought I was going to get hired for. I said, “Oh? What is it you'd like to hire me for?” They told me they wanted me to run their building's entire infrastructure—all the systems that run the entire building. I thought, “Oh, my goodness. This is ridiculous.”
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Okay. I have another question for you now, because I am running out of time.
When you move from military to civilian, or to the public service, there is a problem that we have heard from everybody. It's with regard to your qualifications and those required by the public service. They cannot decipher your qualifications because they have never had to deal with them. Do you have any suggestions on this? Do you think the U.S. military does a better job than the Canadian military does in getting people into the public service?
As an Individual
It's funny you should mention that. I was offered a job with United States Homeland Security and I turned them down. I said I'm a Canadian first and I'd like to work in Canada.