Government Operations Committee on Sept. 19th, 2016

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Yes, but that was out of, I think, 80,000 possible scenarios.

[Marie Lemay]

Maybe Brigitte or Gavin can speak to why that number was chosen.

[Brigitte Fortin]

We looked at some permutations of business rules, and the 80,000 business rules were all tested within those 16,000 scenarios, because one test case can include multiple business rules. So the 80,000 business rules were tested in 16,000 different testing scenarios.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

So your sense is that the testing was adequate.

[Brigitte Fortin]

My sense is the testing was adequate according to IBM standards and methodologies.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay.

It seems that the Phoenix pay system is somewhat similar to the boondoggle with Shared Services in that both were efforts to cut corners by centralizing payroll and IT systems among different departments and agencies. Our committee has already studied Shared Services, but that whole question has really come to a head with the resignation of the chief statistician on Friday.

I wonder if you have any comment on the similarity between these cases and what went wrong.

[Marie Lemay]

The only thing I would say on this is that the initiative was taken for pay consolidation and pay modernization, and it was taken so that we would achieve a modern and effective pay system and at the same time achieve savings. I can't draw any parallels.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Mr. Ayoub, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses once again for being with us today.

I would like to go back to the call for tenders that led to the selection of the Phoenix system. I would like to know when IBM was selected, and when the choice was finalized.

[Marie Lemay]

I am going to let Mr. Liddy tell you about the order in which things occurred.

[Gavin Liddy]

We issued a call for tenders in 2008. Several companies submitted bids. After a fairly lengthy competition, we selected IBM to provide the system. The system is based on the PeopleSoft system.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Fine.

We know what the current situation is. Have you had time to update the cost-benefit analysis on the Phoenix system, in order to examine the current problems, the additional cost, the training required, and the estimates for the coming months and years in the budget that will be tabled? You have talked about savings, but there are also costs. What are the forecasts for the coming years, at least in the short term? Have you had time to examine that, or are you still in emergency mode and attempting to solve things here and there in order to provide paycheques to all of the affected employees?

[Marie Lemay]

We are still very focused on resolving the pay problems; that is our priority. Nevertheless, we have begun to examine the causes of these problems and are looking at the future. As I already said here, we have committed to doing a study on lessons learned, because it is very important to know how we could have done things differently, in order to adjust for the future.

We will certainly improve the system as we go along, and continuously. We have not yet begun the study on lessons learned and how this could influence things in the future, but we are going to begin that soon.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Let's go back to the current situation, as compared to the one that occurred at the beginning of the system's implementation. Is it your opinion that the problems are being resolved and that this will be done as quickly as possible? We are talking about October. What is the current situation, as compared to the one that existed in the beginning of the crisis? I hear all kinds of things in this regard. Some people say that the problems are getting worse, or the reverse, which is that things are improving.

[Marie Lemay]

I see three phases, the last one being the stabilization of the situation.

We established indicators as to the number of people who have not yet received their pay because they left the public service. We implemented a process to allow people to explain their problems to us. Emergency payments are being made. All of our indicators are pointing in the right direction.

That said, we are very much aware that there are still cases that have not been resolved. We have to attack the backlog, but we also have to deal with current transactions. What I am going to say will allow me to correct what I said earlier to some degree. It is certain that we have to improve the turnaround times, but any system will always have bugs that need to be worked out. We are now working on the backlog, and in that regard the indicators are good.

The second phase will begin after October 31, when there will be a transition, so to speak, from the state of crisis to a state of stability. As I said, compensation advisors have been assigned to helping the Miramichi staff in order to meet our service standards and stabilize the situation. Afterwards, we will determine how many compensation advisors are needed to maintain that stability. At that point we will decide which advisors will be let go, if any. However, that will not be done until we have stabilized the situation; that is to say it will not be done until people are being paid in keeping with our service standards.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

On the topic of stability, what characterizes the new employees? Are these employees who used to work for the service but had been laid off? Employees who worked for the service are being called back. These may be people who retired recently or changed areas more quickly following the implementation of the departure strategy. That is what I understand.

[Marie Lemay]

The group is made up of all of those you just mentioned. These people are joining our core teams in Miramichi. They will bring stability to the situation.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Basically, your objective is to stabilize the situation as quickly as possible in order to be able to free up these people again afterwards.

[Marie Lemay]

Exactly. Our objective is to have the people in Miramichi be able to maintain a stable situation once everyone has gotten used to the system, once the change has been managed and the system improved after some adjustments.

The system has three components: the people who enter the data, the users, and the compensation advisors. These three components require adjustments and need to be improved. Once all of that has been done, we will see if the Miramichi compensation advisors will be able to maintain stability on their own. You've heard the minister say that if things do not work smoothly, we will keep more advisors on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Merci, madame Lemay.

Mr. Blaney, you have seven minutes, please.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lemay, if I understood correctly, the department has opened temporary offices in four cities?

[Marie Lemay]

That is correct.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

And those four cities are Winnipeg, Montreal, Shawinigan and Gatineau. Is that it?

[Marie Lemay]

Yes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Since then, over 200 new employees have been added to solve the pay system issue.