Government Operations Committee on Sept. 27th, 2016

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Would that be a solution to you if it...?

[Gary Kirk]

As for the solution I would propose, you often hear that Canada has various geographic and demographic challenges, but in Australia they use flat-rate e-commerce bags. If it fits in the bag, it costs you one price.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We heard that about the USPS as well, and it's over three different bags.

[Gary Kirk]

Yes. You can find a product that works. If they can deliver a product nationally for Amazon for $2.50 but they charge me $9 to $25 to ship, I'm guessing there's somewhere in the middle where we would all be happy.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Perfect. That's just what I wanted to hear. Thank you very much. That's wonderful.

Mr. Dachis, we've heard from the task force that Canadians don't wish to pay more for stamps and they're not interested in paying higher taxes, except for Canada Post.... We've also seen that Canada Post's long-term numbers are not looking good, as prepared by Ernst & Young. Do you believe these are accurate numbers that Ernst and Young has put together?

[Benjamin Dachis]

Oh, absolutely. They have no incentive in terms of protecting their long-term reputation and no incentive to misrepresent any of these numbers.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

Ms. Morris, thank you very much. I appreciate everything that CARP is doing. We talked—and Mr. Rae chipped in as well—about one of the items Canada Post currently does, which is a once-a-day home delivery for those who are infirm or disabled, or for seniors who cannot get to the community mailbox. We've also heard that Canada Post has not done a good job of explaining that this is available, or there's a perception that it's not easy to arrange this with Canada Post.

Do you think it would be acceptable to the general population, seniors, and also the disabled if it were very easily accessible and you don't have to get a proper doctor's note or jump through hoops to make this available to those Canadians? I think you mentioned a beautiful fall day, and one of the other suggestions was about seasonality. In winter, we'll deliver it to the home. In summer....

[Wanda Morris]

While hearing the logic of your argument, CARP's position is that to single out seniors, for example, to say they should have special delivery, is problematic, because—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, not just seniors, but people who are not able, so that's a big umbrella.

[Wanda Morris]

We also have concerns about how that bureaucracy would work.

Also, we are concerned about the idea of a slippery slope, in that we diminish mail delivery for everyone else and eventually the people who currently get special treatment are told later on that there just isn't the ability to provide that any longer. Our position is that we do want mail delivery for all homes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Mr. Kirk, one of the things that came out was the disparity for e-commerce people like you, and shipping to the States, shipping back up, and making it less expensive. We heard what you said about Australia, where just one bag fits all. We heard about how in the U.S. three bags fit all.

I congratulate you on what you're doing. I'm a big fan of bookstores, period. I never buy on the Internet. I only go to bookstores that sell used books.

Without subsidizing businesses, what else do you see Canada Post doing to assist e-commerce businesses like yours?

[Gary Kirk]

Again, certainty about pricing would be the main thing.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When you say “certainty” do you mean also the geographical and long term?

[Gary Kirk]

Yes, along geographic lines. I understand that a 5 kilogram art book is going to cost more than a paperback. I accept that, and I can factor that into my pricing of the item. I had somebody buy a $4.99 paperback from me. They were living in a rural community in Alberta. It would have cost me $15 to ship it to them. What do I say? I'm sorry, but Canada Post doesn't think you get to participate in e-commerce? There's no cheaper way to send it.

You can add on top of that something that I failed to mention earlier, which is the fact that Canada Post is not bothering to collect duty on shipments over $200. The shipping advantage is combined with the fact that they don't have to charge HST if they are based outside of the country. It's almost as if they are out to get you. I just don't understand it. Only Canadians would set up a system that disadvantages their own sellers. It's the ultimate self-deprecating Canadian thing to do.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Well said.

I'm going to pass the rest of my time to Mr. Brassard.

Thanks, Mr. Kirk.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I have one quick question for Mr. Millar.

In your statement, you said that it even cites the discredited 2013 Conference Board report. Can you explain to the committee who discredited this report or where that discredit comes from?

[David Millar]

I can't tell you where it was discredited, but that's from the discussions I've had with members from the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. I've had discussions with people as far up as the president of the CUPW.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to Mr. Weir, but I do want to recognize Professor Lipsig-Mummé.

[Prof. Carla Lipsig-Mummé]

It's not on the Conference Board, but it's on the statistics and the numbers. In the task force report, it projects a $63-million loss for Canada Post in this year. In the second-quarter report by Canada Post, it announced $45 million in profits before tax already in this year. I think we need to look with caution at these numbers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Professor.

Mr. Weir, please, for seven minutes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Indeed, there was the same issue with the Conference Board report in which it projected losses for Canada Post by assuming losses in years when the corporation had actually turned a profit. I think it's important to be accurate about the actual situation of Canada Post rather than being alarmist.

Ms. Lipsig-Mummé, just to stay with you for a moment, you talked about a green plan for Canada Post. One of the options that even the task force has acknowledged is using Canada Post infrastructure to support electric vehicles. Could you speak to the feasibility or the desirability of that approach?

[Prof. Carla Lipsig-Mummé]

I can speak to it, I think.

First of all, 13,000 vehicles makes Canada Post the largest, or one of the largest, fleet owners in the country. Second, about four years ago, The New York Times published an op-ed page piece by the then president of the U.S. Postal Regulatory Commission calling upon the postal service to shift over to green vehicles.

The impact would be enormous. The motivation—that might be the word—or the encouragement to automakers to in fact go green would be enormous, but I think there's also this point. It's almost impossible, with the Canadian federal government going forward with a high-priority shift to low carbon to reduce our greenhouse gas policies, that they are not going to turn to Canada Post, as one of the largest crown corporations left, to say “And what will you do?” and maybe “Shouldn't you be taking some leadership?” We might also argue that the government perhaps needs to prod Canada Post on this.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Now, beyond Canada Post converting its own vehicles to alternative fuels or to electric, once it did that, it would have this network of infrastructure that presumably other organizations and individual Canadians could also utilize.

[Prof. Carla Lipsig-Mummé]

That raises the question of the hub, but also, I got a bit into the fact that the infrastructure of Canada Post that it now has is a very large competitive advantage, and it's a treasure in a number of ways. One is as a community hub, but also, there are a large number of ways that Canada Post still serves to network the country still.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Yes.

Mr. Rae and Ms. Morris, you spoke very eloquently about the critical importance of door-to-door delivery. We now have a Prime Minister who was elected based on a very clear promise to restore home mail delivery, and that would imply not only a moratorium on future conversions to community boxes but also returning to home mail delivery in places where the previous Conservative government cut it.

I wonder if you could speak quite concretely about the expectations that your members have of the current federal government when it comes to door-to-door delivery.