Evidence of meeting #30 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was newspapers.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I guess you don't have any precise familiarity, but do you have any reason to feel why.... You mentioned a paper by a Dr. Brown, is it?
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Do you have any reason to suspect those principles wouldn't apply to the current plan and how there may be some way to achieve savings in Canada Post's pension by converting? Or do you feel it should just be straightforward and that, like any others, this is going to add complexity and is probably not a decision, based on either cost or risk, that we should take?
10:10 a.m.
Founding Partner, Common Wealth
You're asking about converting to defined contribution?
10:10 a.m.
Founding Partner, Common Wealth
Not all defined contribution or defined benefit plans are created equal, but I think it can be possible to have quite good defined contribution plans. We've seen that in countries like Australia and the U.K. that have set up public defined contribution plans. Saskatchewan has a public DC plan as well.
The challenge is in how you manage that liability. You could look to the example of Saskatchewan, which is still managing the stranded liability associated with setting down its DB plans. That occurred, I believe, in the late seventies, and Saskatchewan will be managing that liability for nearly a century from now. It remains on the books.
Those are the complexities that I think would need to be worked through in a structured process to figure out what is actually the bottom line associated with these different options and how much retirement security for the dollar each of the options deliver.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Very quickly, then, Ms. Borden, it sounds like this payday loan issue is very important for your organization. I was wondering if you or your organization have any reports, studies, or business plans that might provide us some detail on appropriate rates, or any rules that any type of payday loan offering from the government should have in order to make it both profitable to the offerer and fair to the people who are using the service?
10:15 a.m.
National Representative, ACORN Canada
We have quite a few different reports that we've had done. We're in the process of doing another one right now. We could get them together and have them sent to you.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Ms. Borden, could you get those directly to our clerk? You can meet our clerk and get all of the coordinates from her after this meeting.
We'll now go to five-minute rounds, with Mr. Brassard, please.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and as well, full disclosure: Ms. Dollin is the deputy mayor in a municipality in my riding, so I may throw her a few lob balls this morning.
Welcome, Lynn.
I have a question for you. You talked about one size not fitting all municipalities as it relates to phasing in door-to-door delivery. Can you give me some examples of what municipalities would be looking for if they weren't going to get the community mailboxes? What are some of the criteria that you think would not involve that one-size-fits-all idea. I know that you spoke about northern and remote communities. Can you give me some rationale behind that, please?
10:15 a.m.
President, Association of Municipalities of Ontario
Certainly, and I thank you, MP Brassard.
As a former municipal councillor, you will understand that, first of all, nobody wants these. It's always “not in my backyard” or “not beside my house”. By working and planning when the plans of the subdivision come in and having that done ahead of time, when the potential purchasers of that property move there they know what's going to be there, as opposed to it being put there afterward. I think that could happen through consultation. I think that posting them in places where they are accessible and where there will be less vandalism is another thing that I'm not sure is totally taken into account at this time.
Also, it's about making them accessible for everyone. In my community, we have several of these “superboxes”, and we're constantly getting called about a puddle in front of them or how the infrastructure is not there around them and people can't access them. Even though it's not our responsibility, if we tell them to call Canada Post people say we're just passing the buck. You end up having to deal with it because everything that other levels of government tend not to take care of falls to the municipality to deal with.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
With your answer, I'm actually reliving my days as a municipal councillor.
There were no issues, Mr. Chair, that caused more angst among neighbourhoods than where these mailboxes were going and when they were seemingly just plopped into position without consultation. I appreciate that answer.
Mr. Mazer, you spoke about joint sponsorship and independent sponsors. There are a lot of examples out there, such as the Ontario municipal employees retirement system. What do you think would be the ideal governance model if Canada Post were to move to a situation like that?
10:15 a.m.
Founding Partner, Common Wealth
Typically, the models that tend to work have a board that has members who are appointed, some of them by the unions, some of them by the employer. That might be roughly fifty-fifty. Those board members, in some cases, are experts in pensions and investments. In other cases, they're more representative of the employer or the union. I've seen models work on both ends of the spectrum.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Is there one in particular that you would highlight as functioning very well?
10:15 a.m.
Founding Partner, Common Wealth
Two plans that have performed very well on a global scale in Ontario would be the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan and the Healthcare of Ontario Pension Plan. Actually, both of those plans, according to independent studies, have had the best returns virtually in the world over the past 10 years. They're both a little different, but they both use a variation of that joint sponsorship model.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Ms. Borden, the task force report to the committee said that “Canada Post would be entering a well-established banking market that serves Canadians well...in which a new player would have to earn its market share through fair competition.”
It talked about four different examples, one of them being an option of “[p]artnering with 3 to 5 large banks or credit unions to provide a low-cost extension”. Even there, it said that the fourth option would only be marginally profitable. What other examples could you give the committee? If it's not those options, then what?
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
National Representative, ACORN Canada
I think Canada Post would definitely make a profit. Look at the payday lenders and how much they're making. People use these services. Ms. Dollin just mentioned that the banks are closing in her area, but then payday lenders are usually opened in those areas. Postal banking would be a great alternative. I can't see how it wouldn't make a profit.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Mr. Ayoub, you have the floor for five minutes.
10:20 a.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Dollin, I have a few questions for you.
When you spoke of your past experience at the municipal level, you mentioned a lack of communication. Do you think if there had been communication, if a consultation had been held regarding service cuts before the major changes were made, would the situation have been better accepted by municipalities? One way or another, would the reaction have been the same?