Government Operations Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

That leads me to another question that you have both raised. I am referring to technology. Technology is becoming increasingly pervasive in the world today. Canada Post is no exception. Banks are no exception either.

We are often told that there is a solution. The Canada Post union said that banking services could be a solution. In your opinion, how would seniors and persons with reduced mobility adapt? How could we replace or improve a service when technology is constantly evolving?

[Jean-Luc Bélanger]

The technology is not always easy. We may take it for granted. It is somewhat surprising that a lot of people of a certain age use a tablet. I know grandmothers who use a tablet to communicate easily with their children and grandchildren. However, this may not necessarily be the case for online banking or much more specific technology such as how to fill out a form on the Web, among other things. They are used to Facebook and some use Twitter, but using more advanced technology may not be as easy.

As I mentioned earlier, the baby boomers who have been in the system since 2011 are much better prepared to use technology. In New Brunswick, poverty is still a reality among seniors. They don't have the means to purchase equipment and pay for an Internet subscription. They can go to public libraries or other public places, but they have to find a way to get there. In rural areas in New Brunswick, a lot of seniors live alone. Their children moved elsewhere for work. They have fewer family members. They have to depend on their neighbours or other people for help, to drive them to the doctor or that sort of thing.

I know that the socio-economic agency that has existed in New Brunswick for a few years is quite interested in the issue of transportation in rural areas. In cities, transportation is not necessarily easier, but there are more possibilities, which is not the case in rural areas.

In New Brunswick, close to 60% of the population lives in rural areas. The little post office that used to be there and has disappeared in some places is a loss for those people. Some have even lost their church, their credit union, their school, and now they're losing their postal service. These are not necessarily tragic losses for these people, but this is nevertheless the loss of an important traditional service.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Kmiec, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Gammon and Mr. Bélanger.

I am a member of Parliament from western Canada. I am going to take this opportunity to practice my French with you a bit today.

First of all, I'd like to talk about the Canadian Postal Service Charter, and then the level of postal service seniors should receive, in your opinion. Do you think seniors in New Brunswick would agree to see mail delivery go from five days a week to three days a week, to allow Canada Post to decrease its delivery costs?

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

Did you want to answer, Mr. Bélanger?

[Jean-Luc Bélanger]

That is an excellent question. It all depends on the people you speak to, the general population or our seniors. Canada Post has a list and says it is going to cut this and that and reduce costs and so on, and there are fewer nuances.

What additional elements could Canada Post add to its current range of services to generate income that would mean that it would no longer be necessary to cut basic services as much for persons of a certain age? That is a question we hear on a regular basis.

We would prefer that Canada Post add services that would benefit seniors and the population as a whole, instead of reducing current services. That is of course the choice of last resort. We are aware that there are economic factors, that technology may improve and that people will eventually get connected.

In New Brunswick, the Internet is available just about everywhere, but according to the most recent statistics, 50% of women and 40% of men of 65 or more in New Brunswick live under the poverty line, that is to say that they get by only on Old Age Security benefits and the Guaranteed Income Supplement. Poverty is thus a reality in New Brunswick.

Access to technology and the capacity to pay more for services are also issues for our seniors, because they don't necessarily have the income to do that. For instance, it may cost $25 to have a parcel delivered by Canada Post, depending on its weight and the distance involved, which is not always affordable for low-income persons, most of which are women in New Brunswick. We have to give them access to more services.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I have to interrupt you, because I only have seven minutes.

Ms. Gammon, go ahead.

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

I second Mr. Bélanger's statements. It is true that a lot of women live under the poverty line, and it is difficult. However, if I had a choice between no home mail delivery and delivery three times a week, I would prefer to receive mail three times a week rather than having no door-to-door service.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I see.

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

I think this is really important for all of the population. There are also young families who live under the poverty line. They are in a difficult situation. In several of our regions, there is no public transit, and that is the case in our area. So you can't take the bus to go to the post office. The Community Inclusion Network is working on it, but it's not done yet.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

According to the figures that were given to the committee, Canada Post will have a deficit of $700 million by 2026. We are all trying to find ways to reduce costs. We are trying to see if new services could reduce those costs as much as possible.

How would you rank Canada Post as compared to the various other public services different levels of government provide? Compared to health services, urban and rural transport, and so on, how would you situate Canada Post?

Are you ready to pay more income tax to obtain a better postal service, or would you prefer that those taxes go to health care or other services for seniors?

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

Those are really difficult decisions. Public health care is important, certainly, since the population is aging and there are now many new syndromes that did not exist before.

I am a teacher by profession. When I began to teach in 1969, we had one class and there were no students with special needs. Now it is not rare for teachers or the spouses of teachers to have to deal with that. For instance, in one class in our region, there were 27 students and 9 of them had special needs.

It is very difficult to determine what we would prefer. There is no doubt that health and education are important, but we also have to find new services. In my opinion, additional services would help Canada Post achieve financial equilibrium.

Some countries offer a lot of complementary services that allow their institution to not be in deficit. I think that is what we have to consider. That said, it is less important for populations in large cities like Toronto and Montreal. In New Brunswick, 60% of the population is really rural. For the people who live in those areas, it is really difficult to get to the community mailbox, the post office, or elsewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Mr. Duvall, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you to our guests for coming today. I appreciated very much listening to your concerns.

We mentioned before and you were surprised, Mr. Bélanger, that there was an option for people with mobility issues to get home delivery once a week. With Canada Post making that home delivery, as they do now, they're telling people there is an option to do this but someone would have to prove they had a mobility issue and fill out an application and get a doctor's note, which comes at a cost. Whatever the doctor charges can vary.

Since Canada Post has changed the way it wants to deliver mail, do you think it's fair that seniors should have to pay a fee in order to prove their mobility issue, or to pay a fee because of that change in delivery method?

[Jean-Luc Bélanger]

That is a good question, Mr. Duvall.

As we explained earlier, the economic situation in New Brunswick is perhaps different from that in other provinces. The circumstances of the population are not as good as in certain other provinces. So when we are asked whether we are ready to pay more for this or that service, the answer is not simple. It is often nuanced.

We've been talking about statistics, but we must not forget that at this time—we think this is an important point—New Brunswick is the province with the most elderly population: 19% of the population is 65 or more, as compared to the Canadian average which is 16%. By 2036, 29.7% of the population of New Brunswick will be seniors. Some people will live longer.

Mobility is always an issue, especially in rural areas, where 60% of our population lives. They have to have access to service at a reasonable cost. As Mr. Kmiec was saying, these people might be willing to accept a compromise and have less frequent mail delivery.

I was talking about transition earlier. I am convinced that the matter of transition has to be examined in the context of any decrease in service or proposal Canada Post will be making to the government. How will we make the transition? It should not happen all at once, in a shocking manner. It should be done one element or one sector at a time.

As Ms. Gammon pointed out, we are learning things about Canada Post today. This means there is a deficiency somewhere. We are very involved with the associations, but we did not know that Canada Post provided door-to-door delivery to people with impaired mobility. There is something missing in the communication with people. As Ms. Gammon said, people aren't always aware of that.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I appreciate that, Mr. Bélanger

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

May I answer?

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Yes. Then I have to ask another question.

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

In New Brunswick, like everywhere else in the world, we have migration toward the larger centres.

The people in our rural communities no longer have family members to help them. Seniors want to remain in rural areas, but their families have moved to the big cities. And so it is very important that that aspect be taken into account when you decide to eliminate a service as important as Canada Post.

For seniors, Canada Post means CPP cheques and Old Age Security Benefits. These people need to have access to those financial resources at a very specific time.

Communication is also something that's very important.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I want to ask you another question, please.

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

Okay.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

This is very important because yesterday when this committee met in another province, one of the witnesses, who was a Liberal MP, admitted that under the previous government, when it was announced that the community mailboxes were going in, there was an outcry across the country. It was loud and clear.

When the election was coming up, the Liberals said in their platform that they were going to save door-to-door delivery. That's what they said. It's in their statement. Another Liberal MP came yesterday and admitted that. He said they were saving home door-to-door delivery.

What did you hear? Is that what you thought that they were going to do, or was there something else?

[Anne-Marie Gammon]

The present government?

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

The present government, yes.