Government Operations Committee on Oct. 7th, 2016

[Bernard Brun]

That's a fairly big question. We're talking about re-invention here.

Since Desjardins is a co-op and serves a very large population, we involve our members when we're looking for ideas like this. Many have brought up financial technology.

For example, Desjardins has set up laboratories, particularly with young people. It's involved in social networks where it will take its ideas. It creates outright laboratories to develop new products, which can then be included in the group or not.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

You have a very consultative approach. We have been listening to the labour unions and to management, and there is always tension between them. The union says that when they give ideas, those ideas are not taken into consideration, or when we talk about financial sustainability, there was $2.1 billion in costs because despite there being a reduction in mail delivery, they made it electronic. All these things happen, and people do make mistakes. These are some of the mistakes.

Without giving us corporate secrets, how large is your clientele?

[Bernard Brun]

We provide services to about seven million members and clients.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you know how many are senior citizens?

[Bernard Brun]

No, I don't know the exact percentages.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay.

[Bernard Brun]

These seven million people are fairly well spread out across all age groups.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Going back to a question that was asked, are they—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Gentlemen, thank you so very much for coming today. I know your schedules are extremely busy.

There is one thing I will offer to all of you. Should you have any additional information that you think would be of benefit to our committee, you can certainly submit it directly to our clerk, and that will be part of our final report. If you wish to do that, do it within the next two weeks or so, because our final report is going to be tabled in the House of Commons, probably by the end of November or early December at the latest.

Thank you once again. Your testimony has been fantastic.

We are suspended for a couple of minutes while we wait for our next witnesses to come to the table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ladies and gentlemen, colleagues, I think we'll start now.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. I noticed that all of you were in the audience, so I think you have a good understanding of how this procedure works, but just to let you know again, each of you will be asked to give a five-minute opening statement. If you can look up occasionally from your presentation, when you get to the four-minute mark, I'll give you the one-minute sign so that you can hopefully wrap up in the five-minute timeline. That will be followed by questions from all of our committee members.

With that brief introduction, I don't think we need much more.

Monsieur St-Onge, I have you as my first speaker.

You have five minutes.

[Richard St-Onge, President, Regional Council, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec]

Thank you for having me here. I will make a short presentation.

Let me introduce myself briefly. My name is Richard St-Onge. I'm the president of the FTQ Quebec City and Chaudière-Appalaches Regional Council. I work with all unions, including my colleagues appointed to Canada Post. I am a jack of all trades, but master of none. That pretty much sums up my situation.

I will present my personal views on Canada Post and what could be a solution in this matter. I read with interest the file I was given, and I got stuck on the point about postal banks. I feel that the solution involves postal banks, among other things. People are saying that this service would help to keep quality jobs in cities and in the regions. God knows that it's interesting enough keeping the words “jobs” and “quality” together in the expression “quality jobs”.

Now I'll move on to development in the regions. To make a long story short, I have lived in Saint-Patrice-de-Beaurivage for three years. It's a small municipality that still has the pleasure of having a post office. That might be a funny thing to hear for a city dweller, but in a municipality of 1,200 people, the post office is very practical and most appreciated.

Providing a postal bank might also allow the creation of new jobs at Canada Post in a system that's already well-established . Allow me to read an excerpt from the Liberal Party's platform in the last election:

We will invest to create more jobs and better opportunities for Canadians.

After ten years under Stephen Harper, good-quality job opportunities for young Canadians are tougher and tougher to find.

Indeed, Canada Post offers good-quality jobs. We need to keep them and find a way to do so.

The witnesses I've seen today have spoken about Canada Post's deficits. Unless our sources are different, I think we're anticipating deficits that haven't yet happened. However, if I'm not mistaken, Canada Post has had a surplus of about $1.5 billion in the last 22 years. We can say what we want about the numbers.

In my short research, I learned that a postal banking service is currently offered in about sixty countries. The service is relatively new in several countries. This suggests that physical mail is changing at the global level and that several postal services have adapted or seem to want to go that route.

I was also surprised to learn that Canada Post currently has 6,300 service points across Canada, or twice the number of Tim Hortons. Already, it seems to me that there are Tim Hortons everywhere. We can't just shove this distribution network aside.

If Canada Post goes the postal bank route, it would be interesting to choose a system different from traditional banks. They could operate differently from the banks by having a presence in the rural regions, among other things.

I'm from Saint-Patrice-de-Beaurivage. To be honest, I still have the opportunity to have a credit union. However, Desjardins has closed three of them in neighbouring towns in three years.

While doing research for my presentation, I understood why there are announcements on the radio, on TV and in the newspapers for instant $500 loans that you can receive in under an hour. The borrowers are salaried employees who need their pay a day or two in advance for some reason or another, and these loans are probably offered at incredible interest rates. When I talk about doing something different, this is the kind of thing I have in mind, and this is the kind of clientele you could seek out.

You could also invest in social housing. Many indigenous communities aren't served by financial institutions. It would be interesting to do this. I also realized that immigrants pay incredible rates to transfer money to their families abroad. This might be another service that could be offered. Pressure could probably be put on the Canadian banking system, which I love and seems right to me—has the witness from Desjardins left?

In short, Canada Post could become a player that could control the exploding costs of all these banking services.

I think I'll stop there, even though I still have two pages of notes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Senneville, you have five minutes.

[François Senneville, National Director, Quebec Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers]

My name is François Senneville. I'm very happy to be here, a little nervous, but happy. If I'm a bit nervous, it's obviously because the subject on the agenda is dear to my heart.

As national director of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, it's my job to protect the good jobs and the postal service. I am also an employee of the post office. I have worked on the floor at Canada Post for almost 15 years. So, you'll understand that this is very important to me.

First of all, I want to thank you for allowing various stakeholders to come and tell the committee what they think would be a good thing or a good future for Canada Post. So here's the flower, but I also came with a pot to carry the flower because I want to talk to you about the online survey and what people have begun to respond.

I would simply like to say that I find the questions in the survey are very biased. That's the impression the organization I represent has, and so do some people I've spoken to. The questions imply to us that Canada Post will not be saved by cutting costs and services within the organization.

I have followed a bit of the committee's work recently. I tried to see what arguments have been made and so on. The first thing that caught my attention is how communication has been made over time at Canada Post, not just with the union, but also with the general public, externally and with its partners.

For instance, when Canada Post's five-point action was announced, there was general dismay. We spent about two hours refusing to believe that the announcement had been made because we had never been told about it. When we finally believed and understood that it was really a plan that was coming, it was already too late. The telephone rang and the media wanted to talk to us. We realized then, through the media, that an announcement had been made.

I mention this because the announcement of the five-point action plan obviously follows a report by the Conference Board stating that we were very alarmist about the amounts of Canada Post's deficits until 2020.

I don't know if you have the document I submitted when I arrived. If you didn't receive it, I have paper copies for all of you.

The document outlines Canada Post's profits the dividends paid to the government, and the taxes that Canada Post paid in the last 30 years. These figures relate to the Canada Post Corporation, namely, Canada Post and its affiliated partners.

The calculation for 2010 to 2015 clearly shows that Canada Post made a profit and has nothing to fear about any deficit. I know that the figure of $1 billion has been mentioned. A little earlier, $700 million was mentioned. I heard the question.

However, looking at the numbers that Canada Post announced, we can't conclude that Canada Post is in a deficit situation at this point. There are changes, I understand that and we accept it. However, we aren't in a situation where the corporation needs to be saved because it's on the point of collapse.

Another important element is that when Canada Post announced its five-point action plan, it stated that no jobs would be lost, that everything would be done by attrition and that no one would be laid off. This statement is partly bamboozlement. Perhaps there won't be any lay-offs and attrition will take place within the corporation, but the reality is this: when postal boxes are installed in a community, the number of post office employees reduces markedly.

Of course, no Canada Post employee will be laid off after community mailboxes are installed, but there will be men and women of single parent families who work during the day and are transferred to a night job. Their family lives will be turned upside down, with a huge impact on those around them. In communities where the number of post office employees has decreased from 50 to 35, a significant financial impact will also be felt locally.

I don't have much time left to talk about appendix T of the collective agreement between the CUPW and Canada Post. One article of the agreement sets out a full process that costs the government absolutely nothing and in which the parties sit at the same table to discuss any reasonable initiatives by the corporation. This includes postal banks and any other initiatives that the government might encourage Canada Post to try. The process costs the government nothing and is part of a negotiation set out in the collective agreement.

A copy of Appendix T is with the documents I left at the door.

I know you do not have it in hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Simard, you have five minutes.

[Jean-François Simard, As an Individual]

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak.

I am a postal worker from the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region, a region that has been hard hit over the last few years.

In the last five years, Canada Post has closed 50% of the urban retail points of sale. I am talking about the ones located right in town, whether in Chicoutimi or in Jonquière. That represents a very large number of well-paid jobs.

The service has not been affected for the single and simple reason that Canada Post transferred its jobs to pharmacies. What they did was to give pharmacies franchises. As a result, the work is now done by pharmacy employees who are paid minimum wage rather than by well-paid employees with good working conditions.

We know that a majority of Canadians have come out against privatizing the postal service. I believe this is a disguised way of privatizing the service.

I have personally experienced the elimination of the postal service in the town of Chicoutimi. I lost my route and I lost my customers. Thirty of my co-workers and I were transferred to different positions with different shifts. I am not doing to dwell on this, but I want to point out that the Canada Post Corporation did not give us notice. We learned a few months before that we were losing our jobs. We were never given details about where we were going. We were left in a kind of vacuum for a long time.

Two weeks before the date for installing the community boxes, management met with us to inform us that we were being transferred to clerk jobs. One week before the date, they had us choose between evening positions and night positions. You have to remember that we were the youngest full-time employees in the office. We all had young families; there were single-parent mothers. We were also informed that if we were not able to show up for our new shifts, we would be considered to be on leave without pay, and then be dismissed. This situation caused my co-workers incredible stress. Is it reasonable for a Crown corporation, one of the biggest employers in the country, to have so little idea of how to communicate with its employees? I ask you.

Today, I saw the CEO of Canada Post here. I have to talk about this. He told this committee that no jobs had been lost at Canada Post. I would very much like him to come to the shop floor and tell it to the temporary employees. They are employees who have five or six or seven years' seniority and have no work today.

In addition, the part-time employees also have no work. I would like him to come to the floor and tell it to those employees. I do not want to dwell on this, but I do want to repeat that we were promised good jobs. We were told to look to the future generation. I think I am the best example to show why good jobs have to be retained at Canada Post.

I am going to change the subject. I live in a small village, Saint-Fulgence, where there is no caisse populaire. Desjardins abandoned us about five years ago. To deposit a cheque, you have to travel 30 kilometres there and 30 kilometres back. There is no other way because there is also no Internet in the village. There is absolutely nothing else we can do. The post office is three kilometres from my home. Service is available there all day; it is computerized. I think that adding postal banking would not be too complicated. I have not witnessed it in the past, but the service has been provided. Postal banking existed in the past; we are not inventing something. All that would be needed is to restore a service.

Canada Post has other possibilities in the small post offices. I did not have to think very hard about it. For example, I had an old television and I did not know where to take it because you have to travel 60 kilometres to take back electronics. Canada Post could also offer that service.

I have one minute left. I would like to talk about the time when Canada Post installed community mailboxes. Briefly, the community mailbox is in a catastrophic location; it is extremely dangerous. We have mobilized and for three months, we have been in a dispute with the Canada Post representatives. They refuse to move the box; they do not give a damn about us. They tell us that they will inform Ottawa of the problem and give us any news. I suppose they are waiting for an accident to happen before moving the box.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lambert, you have five minutes.

[Vincent Lambert, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

My name is Vincent Lambert. I have been employed at Canada Post since 2004. I am here on my own behalf and because I have had the opportunity to have a lot of information about the vision of the Union of Postal Workers, CUPW, when it comes to the future of the company I work for. I have also had the opportunity to meet the public and talk with people, as well as with elected representatives, about our vision of the future of the postal service.

You have certainly had an opportunity to read Delivering Community Power or have it explained to you. One of the points that often comes up and that perhaps affects me a little more is greenhouse gas reductions. We may wonder how the environment can concern Canada Post. However, I think that all corporations, as good citizens, have a role to play when it comes to the environment.

The decisions must also include the impact we have on our environment. As a Crown corporation, Canada Post can play a leadership role in this area. We should set an example and be in the lead when it comes to our environmental practices. We have to implement changes as quickly as possible.

There are actions and decisions that can be considered with the goal of reducing Canada Post's impact on the environment, and perhaps on Canadian society.

First, electrical outlets can be installed wherever there are post offices. You have heard about this: one of the barriers to buying an electric vehicle is often the shortage of charging stations. There are not a lot of outlets. In some places, there are none. That is a barrier. The network of Canada Post points of service can give all communities the opportunity to have access to a charging station.

There is also the issue of door-to-door delivery. We must not forget that this has an effect on reducing greenhouse gases. Imagine 1,000 people driving to get their mail. We have heard a lot about how community mailboxes offer a good opportunity for walking. We know, however, that most people are going to get there by car, even if it is 30 seconds or two or three minutes away. They are going to leave their car running for 15 or 20 or 30 seconds. That means more greenhouse gases being produced. With door-to-door delivery, one letter carrier will travel to those places to deliver the mail.

Having services nearby reduces the need to travel in order to carry out transactions. People have talked about postal banking, and there are various government services we might also mention. There are several things. It might be passports or whatever kind of document or form. Job offers can also be put up in post offices. It becomes a gathering place for people outside urban centres. For remote regions, this may be somewhat more vital, whereas there are numerous services in cities.

I can give myself as an example. On weekends, and even during the week, my car sits in the street because I do not need it. Everything is at hand and easily reached. If you go a little farther out and drive 15 or 20 minutes outside the Quebec City region, you no longer have access to those services. You always have to go somewhere else. Obviously, people do that by car, and once again, greenhouse gases are produced.

All services are accessible on line. However, not everyone is necessarily comfortable applying for a passport on line, or making any other kind of application. It might be a pension or old age security application, for example. Those services are accessible on line, but people often need someone to help them and make sure the form is filled out properly. This is another place where the post office can serve as a gathering place.

Much has been said about postal banking. This could be a place for funding renewable energy projects. Canada has just ratified the Paris climate agreement. We have therefore made a commitment to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. That affects the entire population. If a person wanted to do their part and install solar panels, the postal bank could help finance the installation of solar panels and enable the person to do their part to reduce our greenhouse gases and our footprint on the planet.

I would have liked to take a complete look at Delivering Community Power, but you have already heard about it. That was what affected me most.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Ayoub, you have five minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the four of you for your testimony.

In some cases, I sense a lot of emotion and I respect that a lot. We are talking about your jobs at Canada Post.

Whenever we talk about change and restructuring, it is always stressful and it is never easy. In my personal experience, it seems to be common in the private sector. The issue is adapting to change.

I would like to know your impressions when it comes to the evolution of Canada Post. It is a Crown corporation that has been in existence for over 100 years. How do you see the future of Canada Post? I see efforts on your part to find solutions in order to look for new revenue streams and preserve jobs. That is entirely to your credit. At the same time, there are challenges. We have to find good solutions and they have to be viable. How do you see that in the future?

What I have seen, since the beginning of our discussions about Canada Post, is that there are a huge number of changes. Canada Post is not the same anymore, and the services are not the same as they were 15 or 20 years ago. We have reached a sort of crossroads.

Given this context — I will let you speak after — I also sense great distrust, particularly in terms of communications between Canada Post, the management of Canada Post, the employees and the unions. You talked about that, we have talked about it at the committee, and we have also observed it. To my mind, it is clear that this is not a winning recipe. When there is distrust, people doubt the figures, the perspective, and so on. Considering all of that, what do you think is the crux of the problem and how do you see the future of Canada Post and of the quality jobs you want to preserve?

Mr. Simard, you have the floor.

[Jean-François Simard]

I agree with you completely when you say we have reached a crossroads, but we have to choose which road to take. The management of Canada Post has chosen its road: cutting services, rationalizing and pinching pennies, as they say. However, that is not necessarily the best road to take, when we see what is being done elsewhere.

If the goal is to completely destroy Canada Post's services, let us leave the management in place and let it keep doing what it is doing. That is the road it has chosen. It has demonstrated this. However, it is not a road that we have to choose and you, the members of the committee, are the ones with the power to choose a different one.

[François Senneville]

If I may, Mr. Ayoub.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Absolutely, Mr. Senneville, I am listening.

[François Senneville]

On the question of how I see where we stand with Canada Post, I think we should be thinking more about renewing the corporation, improving it and bringing it up to date. Canada Post has to bring itself up to date, as does trade unionism in general. I come from a union, so I can say it and I am entitled to say it.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I am pleased to hear you say it too.

[François Senneville]

This is a 35-year-old guy saying it. I decided to speak up today. I do not see us in a position to survive. Why I am speaking up about it is that the figures that the public and the union have access to are the ones reported by Canada Post, the financial statements everyone has access to. As the union, we do not have access to the studies commissioned by the Canada Post working group. We do not have access to the studies that have been done on postal banking. We have to compile the figures that are presented in Canada Post's annual reports and so on.

When we analyze those figures, we see that we are not at a crossroads in the sense that the corporation is going to die in the next few weeks or years. That is why we are not alarmist when we talk about the $8.1 billion pension fund. Those are figures that are important if the corporation shuts down. That is why we are trying instead to find solutions to generate revenue.

I'm sorry, I know that I do not have a lot of time.