Government Operations Committee on Oct. 18th, 2016

[Anna Beale]

Oh yes, they are still opening private outlets.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We're still opening them, but we're not closing post office boxes.

[Anna Beale]

No, but when you open up a private outlet 300 metres from the existing corporate outlet—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So the competition is good for—

[Anna Beale]

Well, there's competition in business, right?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You don't want the competition with Canada Post—

[Anna Beale]

Of course not.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But you want Canada Post to compete with the private. Okay.

[Anna Beale]

And that's not true.

We've been railing against that since they opened the first one. It was in Calgary, and I was on that picket line too.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Apart from changing to that, there are no real cuts, but we hear cuts, cuts, cuts. There are no real cuts apart from the change that had been going on with community mailboxes, and there aren't any real cuts in services. There is the opening up of private stuff, but there are no cuts from Canada Post, though, are there?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm afraid we'll have to let you ponder that for a moment.

[Anna Beale]

Darn.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Perhaps Ms. Duncan might want to explore that.

Ms. Duncan, you're up for seven minutes, please.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thanks very much.

We've had some great testimony today. I'm simply sitting in as one of the local MPs while my colleague goes on to other meetings. I appreciate hearing your testimony.

I found Mr. Rosendorff's testimony really sad. We're famous in this city for our community links. Good heavens that we have to end postal delivery so we can meet our neighbours. I think that is a sad testimony to what's happened.

In my community, everybody knows the postie. They sit on the front porch; they talk to the kids, and the dogs play. I think that's a pretty sorry excuse for putting in postal boxes, but I'm glad it has worked for your community.

There are lots of really interesting ideas. One thing I've been reminding witnesses of is that legislation actually provides that the primary mandate of Canada Post is to be a public service. It's right in the task force report. We're not talking about making a private enterprise more profitable. We're talking about the postal service.

I have really appreciated hearing today all kinds of really innovative ideas from people, whether they work inside or outside the postal industry, about how we can make it affordable. Of course, it was a surprise to me to find out that Switzerland, New Zealand, Italy, France, and Britain all do banking. In fact, up to 70% of their profits come from the banking. They don't even have to do loans. They simply help cash cheques, pay bills, and so forth. There are lots of things we can look to our trading nations for about how to get more innovative.

Something that has troubled me, for example, is how in my own riding they shut down a post office that everybody was used to going to by bus. They moved it to a location with no bus service. That's a disgrace.

We have heard from a number of people who are concerned about who is actually being consulted when we locate boxes instead of service or post offices. We have also heard really valuable information about the difference between rural needs and urban needs, in particular in isolated communities. By and large, though, we're hearing from people from our big municipalities—Calgary, Edmonton, and Leduc.

Do you think Canada Post should also have a duty to provide equitable service to our isolated, aboriginal, and northern communities?

[Anna Beale]

I lived in Hay River. I lived in Yellowknife. I lived in Inuvik. I have lived in a lot of small towns in Alberta. I've been around for 150 years. The post office is the only presence of the federal government in some towns. It's the only place you see the Canadian flag flying.

In lots of small towns the bank has moved out and there's no place for people to do banking. One of the big pushes we have behind postal banking is to provide that service in the community. The post office is already there, and it's a federal institution, and the presence of the federal government there is important. That's another reason we have the moratorium, so that we fight to keep the post offices open.

If you live in a small town like Blackie, which is southeast of Calgary, there is no reason why you should have a different postal service than if you live in downtown Calgary or Edmonton. It's the same post office right across Canada. It shouldn't be any different going from Edmonton to Blackie to Westlock to wherever. You go to the post office and do all the kinds of things you need to do.

Keep that presence there. Keep the post offices open. When the post offices are closing, it's a sad situation for this country.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Are there any other comments on that?

Go ahead, Mr. Bennett.

[David Bennett]

I'd be pleased to wade in on that. I'm finding it particularly puzzling that Canada Post continues to fight the inclusion of or the elevation of services to rural communities. I know that one of the biggest issues in the latest round of bargaining was seeking equity for rural and urban carriers.

One of the issues I'm familiar with from back in the early days of NAFTA is the fact that UPS actually sought to sue the federal government by alleging that, through the exclusive privilege to deliver first-class mail, it was unfairly subsidizing the parcel-delivery portion. What was unfortunate about UPS's position was that it was quite clearly interested only in providing competitive services to major urban centres. That's where it could make the greatest revenue and the greatest profits. It clearly was not the least bit interested in providing public postal services to rural communities.

In a northern country like this, with the vast distances that must be travelled, I believe that public postal services are absolutely critical. While the nature of the services provided can change over time, that core service that must be provided, as you've pointed out, is nonetheless part of the Canada Post act of 1981. Canada Post is required to provide those public services. My position would be that this public service in and of itself is vital and critical, has an intrinsic value in our communities, and should be expanded rather than contracted or reduced.

[Anna Beale]

May I make one comment about that as well?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Go ahead.

[Anna Beale]

What possibly would really help is to get our CEO, the board of directors, and the vice-presidents away from the concept that Canada Post has but 400,000 customers. I think there are a lot more people in Canada than that. Deepak Chopra is on record talking about Canada Post's 400,000 customers, so I think that with a mindset shifts, the service could be greatly improved for all Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We will go to Mr. Whalen, please, for seven minutes.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for coming. It's great to hear different perspectives.

As we move across the country and listen to the different testimonies, something that strikes me is that the largest obligation we have is to make sure that pensions are available to postal workers who have earned them, and that we protect well-paid middle-class jobs in this field for Canadians, both now and into the future.

It seems that the current path we're on, while it may protect some, will protect fewer of them, and the path that looks toward growing and expanding the service isn't a vision that's shared by the current management. I've asked this question to some of the witnesses who have been before us, given their past record in operating.

How does each of you feel about the ability of the current management team to deliver on a mission of expanding the service of Canada Post?

I'll start with you, Mr. Bennett.

[David Bennett]

Full disclosure: I'm a retired letter carrier and my father is a retired letter carrier. My father and mother raised four children on the wages of a letter carrier. Those wages also allowed us the privilege of attending university. The fact that my father, who is now 88 years old, has retired comfortably has a lot to do with the fact that, yes, he has a defined-benefit retirement package. The fact that I can continue to live in an increasingly expensive city like Calgary has a lot to do with the fact that I have a defined-benefit retirement package. This is something that I value greatly, and frankly, I think it's something that all Canadians are entitled to.

I've always wondered about this sort of race to the bottom that seems to come about with the idea that somehow wages and everything have to be cut absolutely to the bone for us to be as competitive as possible—

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Bennett, here's what my question was really about. With the current management team's position, if we try to expand the services, do you have confidence that it can deliver on a revised mandate if we choose to suggest one, if we recommend one to expand the services to help fund these continued benefits?

[David Bennett]

No, I'm personally not confident in the current management. I think it has quite clearly shown its orientation, which is to move away from expanded services.