Evidence of meeting #48 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
9:40 a.m.
Director, Labour Relations, AIL Canada
Our Winnipeg office is our head public relations office, and it probably does have somebody designated, but as for our other offices across the country, they do not.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
One thing that we did hear about in earlier testimony from business owners is that labour disruption, or the threat of labour disruption, is a huge deal-breaker for them. They need to find alternate routes of delivery, and some of the small sellers on the Internet even had to stop selling.
Mr. Fisher or Mr. Bennett, what kind of assurances can we have in the future? If parcel delivery is the way to go, and I think it is, that could be a huge deal-breaker for future growth.
9:45 a.m.
National Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Certainly there are collective agreements and they're subject to negotiations that come up. I think that this largely comes up, of course, because of what we saw this past summer. From the union's viewpoint, that was a self-inflicted wound by Canada Post. We were very clear, and we've been very clear for a number of years, that when we are in a labour dispute, we want to have a minimum impact in respect to the customers. We have taken extreme measures to ensure that.
If you look back a number of years ago to the last labour dispute that occurred in 2011, at that point we simply had rotating strikes, which slowed down the system but didn't stop it. For us, customer service and being able to keep that mail stream moving is paramount for the Canadian people. If you look back a number of years, that's been our history.
It hasn't been what it was, such as in 1981. That was 35 years ago. It was the last time we had a full-out postal strike. Always it's been rotating strikes, and usually it's only come to a point where there was no postal service as a result of either government intervention or Canada Post locking us out and shutting down the service.
As I said, the most recent one was a self-inflicted wound. We were very clear that we wanted to make sure the Canadian people continued to get mail even though there was a collective agreement being negotiated, and even though under the Canada Labour Code we had the right to strike.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
That's interesting.
What are the ways forward for a more collaborative approach to making sure that Canada Post remains sustainable on a go-forward basis?
9:45 a.m.
National Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
More sustainable in respect to the labour relations issue and—
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
To business growth, so that we can have a viable business. The remarks we've heard have been very interesting. Nobody disputes that letter mail is declining, but it's very interesting to see the growth in parcel mail and where that can go in the future. However, there will be other competitors coming into that marketplace. It doesn't take long for other people to see where the opportunities are.
Given that the strength of Canada Post is that it's an already established distribution network, what are employees willing to do at Canada Post to make sure that remains a strength?
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
I'm afraid, Mr. Fisher, you're going to have to hold that answer. When Mr. Blaikie asks you a question, you can perhaps expound on that.
I remind all panellists that the seven minutes or five minutes are for both questions and answers.
We'll go on to our next presenter, Monsieur Clarke.
If you are not fluently bilingual, you may want to put on your headsets.
Mr. Clarke, you have seven minutes.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, everyone. My thanks for being here with us today.
Representatives from the Canadian Union of Postal Workers have been at almost all the committee meetings held this week. You are diligent, that's fantastic.
I would like to begin by asking Mr. Bennett how many members there are in his local.
9:45 a.m.
President, Prairie Region, Local 856, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
The Winnipeg local has about 1,400.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay. That's impressive.
Last week, I noticed across Canada that most of your colleagues seem to have doubts about Canada Post's deficit estimates. I'm talking about the $750 million deficit estimated by 2026. Do you have doubts about those estimates, just like your colleagues in the rest of Canada?
9:45 a.m.
President, Prairie Region, Local 856, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Are you speaking of the projections by the Conference Board of Canada?
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
President, Prairie Region, Local 856, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Those projections have failed miserably across the board. They have not even come close. In fact, one of the projections was was over $300 million in the wrong, so I don't have any confidence in that report at all.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I can understand your doubts, but I'm a little confused about something. The task force appointed by the Liberal government has released its report recently—our study follows up on the report—that presents the same findings about the deficit as Canada Post.
How do you explain that, three years later, the task force has come to the same conclusions, flawed conclusions according to you?
9:50 a.m.
President, Prairie Region, Local 856, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I don't know who provided you with the numbers.
I know Mr. Deepak Chopra sits on the board of the Conference Board of Canada, and I believe he probably provided those numbers. There was no indication going forth that those numbers were going to be hit. In reality, when the numbers come out and the Canada Post profits come out, they were way above what the projections were.
I don't know where you got the numbers and what you're looking at, but—
9:50 a.m.
National Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I can add to that. Part of the report that came out from the original committee—and the union has already made it clear that we have our issues with that report—in fact based the numbers on the Conference Board of Canada report, which included—
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
There was a study by Ernst & Young that came to the same result.
9:50 a.m.
National Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Yes, but they didn't do their own analysis. They looked at the Conference Board of Canada report and accepted it, and that has already been proven to be completely wrong. It was proven within a year, when they projected that in the year after the report or the year of the report there would be a $200-million loss. There was actually a profit. We have seen that repeatedly. There are many articles on that report and consideration of it.
The problem with that report is that it never took into consideration or did any independent analysis, so to take that and accept it as part of the committee's report is erroneous. They have to do their own investigation and look at their own numbers, because it just hasn't turned out to be true, and there are all sorts of holes in it that have been debunked over the years.
In fact, I would say that Canada Post is very much in a position to make a lot of profit through a lot of different services it can offer.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
In 2013, Canada Post submitted its five-point action plan. One question springs to mind.
Have the Canada Post workers proposed a similar plan to ensure the corporation's long-term sustainability?
9:50 a.m.
National Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I think I got the question right. I may have lost a bit of it there.
Essentially, in terms of the longevity of Canada Post, the union has promoted expanding Canada Post's services since the early 1980s. We've always seen that in order to have better services, you have to take avenues to make more profits. You have the largest retail network in the whole country. You have access to areas no one else does. Postal banking is just one of the examples. I'm sure this committee has heard numerous other examples of services that could be offered by Canada Post.
The only reason that has been given for not doing those services.... What we've mainly heard from Canada Post about postal banking, for instance—not to give the whole answer but to paraphrase—is that Canadians are already serviced well by the existing banks. That's not a reason, if you want to have services, not to get in and compete. As was raised earlier, Canada Post competes in numerous areas. When you have that retail network and you can be successful, we say as a union that it's fundamental to get into those areas and compete for it.
If businesses want to compete with Canada Post, which they do, that's fine. As an enterprise, in order to provide service—which is the obligation it has—Canada Post should also be able to go into areas where it can make profits and compete with those businesses. That should include banking and other services they may be willing to offer.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I think the big problem now is that there are two visions that are based on two different assumptions. Canada Post management claims that there will be a deficit in 10 years, and that the profitability and the very existence of the corporation are threatened. However, labour unions argue that the profitability and solvency are fine. Personally, I take a neutral position.
Assuming that Canada Post is right, and that a huge deficit builds up within 10 years, do you think it would be laudable and reasonable to ask workers to make efforts? Let’s not really talk about salary cuts, which nobody wants. Would your union be ready to accept a reduction in annual sick leave?
Actually, most Canadians don’t have access to those types of benefits. In your opinion, how much effort should workers put in on their own initiative to improve the situation at Canada Post?
9:55 a.m.
National Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
I think the workers at Canada Post have done that. In the last two or three rounds of bargaining, there were items given up by the postal workers that Canada Post considered to be things that cost it, that affected the bottom line dramatically. Postal workers no longer enjoy sick leave days. They have a different system that the employer wished to impose upon them because it saved money. Postal workers no longer receive severance pay when they leave the corporation. That's something they have given up.
Postal workers have given up a lot, but what we haven't seen is a commitment from Canada Post to go in a direction of making sure that it can be profitable. A large part of the problem is that since 2008 Canada Post has kind of gone in the other direction, which is to restrict its ability to make profit rather than to enhance it.