Government Operations Committee on Oct. 24th, 2016

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I think in time, as you go through a couple of budget cycles, we can operationalize this and strengthen and narrow that significantly.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What's the thinking behind May 1, though, instead of what OGGO said in 2012?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

It's flexibility initially, as we operationalize this, because it will take a significant change in terms of the working of departments to do this. I want to see in time that we can have the main estimates by April 1. I want to see that, but I also want to ensure that as we move towards that, departments are able to respond. In time—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you think something has changed since a couple of years ago, or was the OGGO 2012 version just incorrect; they hadn't thought it through?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

No, I think the OGGO report was actually very instructive.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

One of the issues we have about May 1, of course, is that we have to have by May 1 the two suggested departments for the committee as a whole, so we lose out on that. The whole purpose is expanded transparency, and we're losing a lot of time to review before our June cut-off.

I understand the need, but we seem to be going step-forward, step-backwards.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

It's May 1 that we're proposing, and that is to provide flexibility in terms of government being able to ensure that the first couple of budget cycles are fine. I actually think we can do it earlier. I would hope that we can deliver main estimates by April 1. The priority for government to do that is one that I take seriously, but this is to provide some flexibility in the first couple of budget cycles as we move toward a narrowing of budget and estimates timing.

I hold Australia up as a model in terms of having the budget and estimates almost coincident. That's the gold standard.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

The reason we are suggesting May 1 at the latest is to give that flexibility. If you apply it practically to this year, for example, we almost have to—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right. But how do you address the concerns of, again, we introduce...and, by the way, the same day, opposition, give us your two departments for committee as a whole? I understand flexibility, but how do you address our concerns about a shortened period of time for us to review costs? It goes back to Westminster. That was the reason a parliament was put together, to review spending—

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

We totally agree with you, but currently Parliament really doesn't get the real accounts. It gets it in many, many pieces. For departments, for departmental managers, an expenditure can show up in the budget and may not get authority for 18 months. We're trying to find a sweet spot where we can actually implement this. As the minister said, ideally it should be no later than April 1.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I think we agree with the 2012 OGGO report. I understand, but I think we probably can get it done by then.

Have we looked at a fixed budget date, to move up the budget to, let's say, February? The Australians do a phenomenal job. I don't think they legislated it, but it is their tradition. I think it's the second Monday of May.

We hear, well, there are issues with minority governments, and this and that. But in Canada, both Liberal and Conservative governments, minority or not, every year going back 17 years, have done it within a period of a couple of weeks, except for one year. Could we not just move...?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The timing of the estimates is in the Standing Orders, but the timing of the budget is the purview of Finance.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But you get along so well with Finance.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Over the years there have been times, post-9/11 and different times, when in fact Finance saw fit, appropriately, to bring in a budget or a significant economic statement that contained a lot of budgetary measures.

In terms of what we're tabling today, I'm going to ask Brian to speak to budget tabling dates from 2006 to 2016, to give some perspective.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We're short on time, so you'll have to be fast.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

What we are proposing will significantly improve the sequencing and alignment. It is what I can, as Treasury Board president.... These four have required a significant level of engagement with Finance and across government. They are a significant step forward. I think the sequencing one is very important in terms of changing the Standing Orders, but I don't view this as the last thing, Kelly. I think this is a first significant step, but we can do more.

If we have a moment, Brian can speak to the last 10 years.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I agree, but I think moving up the estimates but also considering a fixed date for the budget...because we seem to be accomplishing it anyway, except for 2006.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm not certain the 2012 OGGO report addressed the fixed budget date. There was some reference to it. In the same way that this committee has had an influence on the work we're doing now, it will continue to have an influence on it.

The other thing is that, going forward, on an iterative level we will be able to evaluate how things are going and how we can improve things. This is a partnership.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Pagan, before you go, because we're running out of time here, I think we will have to eventually decide again about some of the issues, if it is May 1, shortening our ability to review and scrutinize, but also some of the issues, with May 1 being the cut-off, in our ability to name the two departments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

The reply of Mr. Pagan will have to wait until perhaps the next intervention.

We have to go to Mr. Weir now for seven minutes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thanks.

We've had the discussion about May 1 versus April 1 as deadlines for the estimates. The other side of the sequencing question is when the budget happens, so I do want to pick up on this matter of a fixed budget date. We're kind of assuming that the federal government usually tables a budget in February or March, but of course there's no requirement for that. There was even a year, I believe 2002, when the federal government didn't put forward a budget.

I wonder why, in trying to fix this timing question, Mr. Minister, you're not proposing either a fixed budget date or a set range of dates for the budget.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Erin.

Again, what we're proposing today is a significant improvement in terms of sequencing a budget and estimates. This is something that will be a major improvement. Currently the budget is exclusively the purview of the Minister of Finance, whereas the estimates are subject to the Standing Orders. Changing the dates of that, of the Standing Orders, to better enable logical sequencing with the budget is something that as Treasury Board president I can propose, and it's in my purview to do that in conjunction with Parliament.

This will be a significant improvement over that which exists now in terms of the practice, but in reality, as you said, there is a custom in terms of budget introduction.

If I may, Brian has in fact budget tabling dates from 2006 to 2016 to put it into some perspective.

[Brian Pagan]

Thank you, Minister.

As the minister said, we absolutely are working very closely with Finance to lessen the time or shorten the gap between the tabling of the budget and presentation of the main estimates. The fact remains, however, that there are instances when the Department of Finance needs some flexibility in terms of the timing of the budget. In the fall of 2008, there was a global economic recession, so the government of the day worked very hard to bring forward a budget quite quickly in the cycle to provide assurances to markets and to Canadians to take advantage of that.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Yes, that would be fair enough where there was a need to present the budget early, but, I suppose, why not present a deadline for the budget in the same way we're suggesting a deadline for the estimates?

[Brian Pagan]

Right. As the minister said, what we have tried to do is reflect the spirit of the 2012 report from OGGO in which they requested a specific fixed budget date. But the reality is there is nothing in the Standing Orders, in the Financial Administration Act, or our Constitution about budgets, and therefore we are not in a position to specify what that tabling date is.