Government Operations Committee on Nov. 21st, 2016

[Serge Dupont]

The vast majority is actual people in the Privy Council Office. It's roughly 15 people for the purpose of essentially driving a results and delivery approach throughout government.

For example, I mentioned intergovernmental affairs. That's $1.4 million additional, representing about five people in intergovernmental affairs. I could give you the full breakdown by function.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I missed what the people are doing in intergovernmental affairs. It's $300,000 a body. What are they doing please? Is that at the ADM level?

[Serge Dupont]

No. There are different levels. I think we had one or two additional executives, and two or three additional analyst-level individuals. That is to support a greater activity in regard to first ministers' meetings, as I mentioned earlier, and also a stronger role exercised by the Prime Minister in coordinating overall intergovernmental files across the government whether it's infrastructure, climate change, housing, and so forth.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is this all through those same five people?

[Serge Dupont]

We already had some individuals in intergovernmental affairs. I think there were already 27 people, supplemented by five, to reflect this heightened level of activity, greater emphasis on the relationship with provinces and territories, and also with municipalities, and also with indigenous groups. That is all under intergovernmental affairs.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are there any other big chunks of money?

[Serge Dupont]

I'm happy to share the table with you. Democratic reform is about $1 million to support the Minister of Democratic Institutions, again within PCO to support the exercise, the outreach, and so forth of the Minister of Democratic Institutions.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I want to move on to a follow-up of something. When your colleagues were here, I think it was in May, we talked about one your roles, which is that you oversee the integrity in the staffing system to ensure non-partisanship within the public service.

I'll read an article from Maclean’s by Donald Savoie, professor, Canadian public service, University of Moncton. This is about the event when the Prime Minister walked into, I think, Foreign Affairs and got the standing ovation, but it mentioned a couple of other backslapping moments with ministers. I was taken aback at that event. I don't think it was appropriate. If you're non-partisan, you don't exhibit that kind of show. You don't appear to be non-partisan by hissing at journalists for asking tough questions, or applauding, and getting a bit giddy.

The comment by Ms. Donoghue at the time was that, basically, the responsibility doesn't lie with you for non-partisanship with the public service but rather with individual deputy ministers. Then she said that when we have cases or when there are obvious ones where we can identify individuals, we have the possibility of conducting investigations to see whether or not there's been an issue of conduct or if corrective measures are necessary.

I'm curious as to whether you agree something like that overt partisanship is something at an ADM level, or if it does fall under your purview as it's stated, and if there have been cases where you have investigated or followed up.

[Serge Dupont]

I think there are a couple of things.

First, non-partisanship and holding to the values of the public service is first and foremost an individual responsibility of every public servant. It is the responsibility of every executive to uphold it in their organization, of every deputy minister. It is ultimately the responsibility of the clerk to ensure that this value is well understood and reflected in the behaviours and performances of public servants. It is one of the very core values of the public service.

I wouldn't comment on any particular event. There can also be a pride and support in a minister, in a Prime Minister, that is not necessarily inconsistent with that non-partisanship. I think it is a matter of judgment that has to be exercised.

I can assure the member, and I can assure the chair that from the point of view of the clerk, from the point of the view of the public service, this is an essential value for us. It's certainly one we reiterate, and we really try to exemplify at every opportunity.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ten seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have 10 seconds so I'll just say thanks, and you can respond in about two seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weir, you have seven minutes, please.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you.

I noticed that one of the items for which PCO is seeking supplementary funding is supporting the Minister of Democratic Institutions' engagement with Canadians through in-person and virtual platforms. The minister did come and hold a public meeting in Regina. It was well attended. The vast majority of people there preferred a mixed member proportional voting system.

I'm just wondering, on the funds that you're requesting, are they to support those meetings that the minister was holding, or what would they cover?

[Serge Dupont]

The monies requested in these estimates really cover the internal capacity in the Privy Council Office to support the minister and to support the cabinet committee on open and transparent government in Parliament. It is to support the overall initiative, and that does include the minister's outreach. It does include, as well, planning and the advice that is provided to the minister and to the government on the democratic reform exercise.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I noticed that it's in-person or virtual platforms, which suggests to me it may not include the cost of the mail-out to all households that the government is contemplating on democratic reform.

[Serge Dupont]

There was an additional reference in budget 2016 of $10.7 million every four years that would address outreach to Canadians, and this is not covered in these supplementary estimates. That may come forward in supplementary estimates (C).

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay, thanks for clarifying that.

I suppose if the government actually decided to change the voting system, there might be further supplementary estimates around that. This just covers the kind of consultative work that is being done now.

[Serge Dupont]

Any expenditure consequence of any particular exercise conducted by the government and by Parliament would have to come here. If there were expenditure consequences, it would have to come through either main or supplementary estimates at some point in time. That is correct.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I was also going to ask about the item in these supplementary estimates for the youth secretariat. I am wondering what the rationale was for that secretariat being funded through PCO.

[Serge Dupont]

The answer is a simple one. The Prime Minister himself decided to give this his priority attention as Minister of Youth. Therefore, with the Privy Council Office being the department of the Prime Minister, it is normal that the function be located there.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

If the Prime Minister made himself Minister of Finance, we wouldn't be running the whole department of finance out of PCO. I guess I just wonder if it was because there wasn't an established department of youth already.

[Serge Dupont]

That's correct.

I suppose, had it been finance, it might have been a different answer. However, in practical terms, for youth, there certainly was no impetus here to create a new department, and we are easily able to house that function in the Privy Council Office.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I definitely see the connection in terms of the Prime Minister as an individual, but I guess I don't see the connection as clearly in terms of the actual policy area or the function. It doesn't seem like something that would naturally be a part of PCO. However, I take your point that if it were something new being set up by the Prime Minister, then I suppose there's a logic to it being connected to PCO.

I also want to ask a bit about the new process for Governor in Council appointments. Last week, at the public accounts committee, the Auditor General emphasized the point that there had often been a lack of orientation and training for people after they received those appointments. I wonder if that's something that might be covered through the supplementary funds that are requested here.

[Serge Dupont]

There are no incremental resources required for that specific objective, although we are adding some capacity to that secretariat and that may be deployed over time to different functions, different needs.

The Privy Council Office has a sustained relationship with all of the different organizations. There is on-boarding of new board members, new commissioners, and so forth, in each of the organizations concerned. The Privy Council Office, and also the School of Public Service from time to time, will have briefing sessions for new appointees to different functions.

There is an effort, certainly, to ensure that the individuals appointed to different positions have the proper introductions to their roles.