Evidence of meeting #62 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employees.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Well, it's pretty clear at this point that the concerns weren't addressed, but at the time you're saying you felt that she was fully informed, when she wasn't provided the existence of a report that directly went to the auditability of the system.
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We felt we had addressed the concerns and when we made.... We didn't make a recommendation. We informed the minister of the decision to move forward. It actually wasn't the minister's decision. We felt we had addressed all the concerns raised by Gartner, and so did the deputy minister community, including the comptroller general and the secretary of the Treasury Board.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Absolutely.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
What issues did the comptroller general have about the Phoenix pay system?
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The ones that were raised in Gartner and also the ones that had been raised to him directly by heads of HR and CFOs. Mainly—
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Testing, readiness to go live within the pay centre itself.
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
No, that wasn't one of the concerns that was raised.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
What about anything related to the comptroller general's concerns regarding the accuracy of pay?
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Not that I recall.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay.
Another thing that you mentioned made me think of some other testimony we've received. Under the old system, how long did it normally take for employees to receive their special pay? These are things like overtime pay, duty pay for filling in for somebody else, mat leave pay, this non-standard pay.
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It varied by department because each department had its own.... I can give you an example. Seventy-five days was not abnormal for acting, for example.
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
You said the pilot was designed to see three pay periods. Who provided the advice that a three pay period pilot was going to be sufficient to determine any issues with respect to non-standard pay?
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
When we did the initial rollout in December that the deputy mentioned, the decision was to go from one big bang, one cutover, to two cuts. We felt that three pays was sufficient to do that.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
On what basis did you feel that three pays would be sufficient, given that you just told me now that it's five and a half pay periods before you even expect to receive overtime pay?
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes, but the system was designed to eliminate that gap, to allow people to enter—
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Yes, but Mr. Liddy, it may have been designed to eliminate the gap, but the only way we would know whether or not there were problems would be self-reporting by employees. It's their experience of pay that matters.
As MPs, when we first started receiving concerns in May, that jives very well with your 75-day timeline when people were saying they hadn't received their overtime pay from February.
Who recommended to the minister that three pay periods would be sufficient to determine issues that employees themselves would not recognize as a problem for almost 11 weeks?
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Again, we're talking about two different systems. You can't compare.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
We're talking about employees receiving their pay and it's their experience that's important here.
5:45 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I totally agree with you. It is about employees receiving their pay and no one's working hard to regulate that, but it's two different systems.
One system was designed to automate, so they wouldn't have to wait 75 days.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I'll repeat my question. How did that three pay period recommendation come about? It clearly defies all logic.