Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

The reason I think it's relevant is that one of the reasons people are reluctant to come forward as whistle-blowers is that they're afraid they will face workplace harassment. Of course that's more likely if harassment is more prevalent and more tolerated in the workplace generally. It does seem to me that an across-the-board anti-harassment policy is very important in order to create a climate in which people are willing to come forward as whistle-blowers.

We're essentially out of time, but if you have any other thoughts on how your work relates to the broader anti-harassment policy, that would certainly be of interest.

[Carl Trottier]

You're referring to reprisal in the form of harassment, I assume. Again, the act protects the individual who is doing the disclosure, which is an essential part of this act. This committee should reinforce the fact that the privacy of the information is paramount in terms of protecting the employee and encouraging them. They need to know that they can come forward and that their information will be kept confidential.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Ayoub, you have seven minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both of you for being here to answer our questions.

I will touch on a slightly more technical side. I would like to talk about the number of disclosures. I am always a little concerned when I hear politicians casting doubt on mechanisms that are specifically designed to reassure public servants, the public service, the government and, ultimately, the public. The doubts expressed always concern the effectiveness of the system, which was implemented a few years ago. It is always perfectible. Indeed, we can always improve on things; it's normal. The important thing for me is knowing whether it works well, whether the corrective measures respond to the problems raised. Confidentiality is very important. You just mentioned it. It is perhaps the rule that, above all else, will allow people to feel comfortable becoming whistleblowers.

The 2015-16 annual report indicates that 385 disclosures were processed during that period. Some figures decrease from year to year, while others increase. In total, 31 processed disclosures resulted in corrective action, an increase of 82% over 2014-15.

Seen in this light, I think the numbers are pretty encouraging. There is no evidence to suggest that, by correlation, the 400,000 employees should result in thousands of disclosures. On the contrary, there should be very few. In theory, these disclosure figures can make people panic, but it should be the opposite.

Could you tell us whether any particular trends or problems emerged from those 31 disclosures that were processed and that led to action?

[Carl Trottier]

Are you talking about the corrective action we took?

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Yes.

[Carl Trottier]

In some cases, we saw that there was preferential treatment when hiring. Often, corrective or disciplinary measures are imposed on employees or people who have engaged in wrongdoing.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Are you talking about discrimination in hiring or on promotion?

[Carl Trottier]

The example given is for a manager who favoured an employee during hiring. The commissioner must deal with this issue. That's the example I'm giving you. In this case, disciplinary measures can be imposed on the manager who committed the act.

It may also involve a misuse of funds. Disciplinary measures may then be imposed. If corrective action is taken, it is possible, for instance, to withdraw the person's ability to manage those funds. Thousands of corrective measures can be applied. It's really managed on a case-by-case basis, depending on the circumstances.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Is one particular sector of the public service affected, or is it distributed unevenly?

[Carl Trottier]

It's really uneven.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Some disclosures were dismissed. Could you explain why disclosures are dismissed, not considered, not received?

[Carl Trottier]

That's a good question. As I mentioned earlier, these are cases that can be addressed through other remedies, whether they are grievances or part of a collective agreement. If a process exists in a collective agreement, the problem must be addressed in that context. This is not part of the measures that must be addressed here.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Does that mean that there is confusion between the different types of complaints or disclosures that need to be made? Collective agreements manage the administrative side of the work, but the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act addresses the illegal nature of large-scale acts, including mismanagement and fraud.

[Carl Trottier]

Sometimes it isn't clear. It's the commissioner's role to determine what is clear. It isn't easy for an employee to know whether it should be a grievance or a disclosure. So the employee will do his or her best to get to the bottom of all this.

Collective agreements have a grievance process. The employee faces—

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

The big difference between grievances and disclosures is confidentiality. A grievance isn't confidential, meaning that it is a process involving the boss, superiors.

[Carl Trottier]

I also mentioned earlier what wrongdoing is. It must fall within the definition of wrongdoing.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Absolutely. We have a list.

[Carl Trottier]

If the action doesn't fall within the definition, we determine whether it can be addressed through other means.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I would just like to know what measures are in place to ensure that the number of disclosures processed isn't contaminated, if I can call it that, by the number of disclosures that are received but not processed because they were submitted to the wrong place. Those disclosures are received but are sent elsewhere directly. Ultimately, you shouldn't have received them to begin with. So perhaps they shouldn't even be counted in the overall statistics.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You're going to have to wait for that answer, perhaps in another round of questions.

We will go now to Mr. Clarke.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. Thank you for being here.

First of all, I would like to try to better understand how it works. Is there an office as such that deals with disclosures and complaints? Is it the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer?

[Carl Trottier]

For the disclosure of complaints?

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Is there an office as such where there are employees whose sole task is to focus on applying this act and receiving complaints?

[Carl Trottier]

The Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada is responsible for that.