Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Mary Anne Stevens]

We know this was a recommendation from the Gomery commission and that some other stakeholders hold that recommendation. We're interested in the views of the committee on that issue.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

It seems it has proven effective in other jurisdictions.

[Carl Trottier]

Again, we haven't had the experience of applying it, so as I mentioned, we have applied it the way the act was given to us. We would welcome direction on that from the committee, should the committee want to consider those changes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Do you think it's feasible, and it's definitely something worth considering?

[Carl Trottier]

I take your word that other jurisdictions are doing this, and in that sense the feasibility would have to be measured on how successful it is with them.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's fair enough. Could you explain the rationale for not having brought in the reverse onus, even though, as you say, the Gomery commission did recommend it?

[Carl Trottier]

Remember we don't bring in; Parliament brings in. If there were a rationale as to why it wasn't at that time—

[Mary Anne Stevens]

This is the first review of the legislation since it came in, in 2007.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That was my original question to you. Why has it taken so long for this review to happen? I'm glad we're undertaking it now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we do have some time left before I want to suspend and go into committee business. We'll go for another complete seven-minute round, and we'll take a look at where we stand after that. We'll start with Mr. Whalen for seven minutes.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for coming. I want to get back for a second to this idea of open and closed definitions for reprisal and wrongdoing.

You're saying that you think that the definition of reprisal is broad enough, but when I look at it, it does seem to be pretty much an enumerated risk of threats. Have there been examples of people who have come to you who have thought that some reprisal had been brought against them, but you formed a view that even though it was a negative action against them, it didn't meet any of the definitions of reprisal and so you didn't pursue?

[Carl Trottier]

That is an excellent question, but they never do come to us. As the office of the chief human resources officer, we do not receive complaints, so we're not in a position to be able to answer that. I would ask that you reserve that question either for senior officers, if they come, as the employees come to them, or for the commissioner himself.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Okay, so you wouldn't be in a position as the sort of aggegrator of all the information from all the various departments....

[Carl Trottier]

We aggregate results. However, at the front end when it comes in, it comes to the direct supervisor, to the senior manager in the department, or to the commissioner's office. At that point, they would view what you just asked and say whether it falls within this or not. Unfortunately, we don't see that early element.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

When we look at the information that's being provided in the annual reports from the Integrity Commissioner, the numbers don't seem very high. However, if you consider each of the individual chief executive officers of the departments and that they have their own internal process as required by the act, is your department aggregating all of that information so we can have a better sense of how much wrongdoing is being alleged within the federal civil service? We are only seeing it at the very egregious level, where people are fearful of going to their own internal process so they go to the Integrity Commissioner.

What about all of the internal processes and internal allegations of wrongdoing that happen in the normal course, in the way we hope that they would, in the departments themselves? Are Treasury Board and the human resources office collecting all of that information from each of the individual executives appointed?

[Carl Trottier]

Yes.

The information that we've been referring to throughout this committee hearing, and that I was pointing to before, in fact is information that comes from all the departments and all the senior officers. This captures the whole environment of what happens in wrongdoing.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Okay, then going back to my question before, are you measuring the number of reprisals and allegations of reprisal?

You said you didn't have that information, but now you're saying you have all of the information. How many allegations of reprisal are being made internally, within organizations, and not to the Integrity Commissioner? What are those numbers, and how often is someone falling through the cracks because the definition of “reprisal” is too narrow?

[Carl Trottier]

When it comes to reprisal, the reprisals only go to the commissioner.

Again, we have the wrongdoings, but the reprisals only go to the commissioner. That is going to be an excellent question for the commissioner, and I'm sure that the commissioner will be in a better position to respond.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Okay, so on the definition of “wrongdoing”, then, do you have numbers for when someone thinks it's wrongdoing but it's not really wrongdoing, internally at the lower level?

[Carl Trottier]

We have to extrapolate a bit from the numbers that we have here with regard to the total number of disclosures handled or the total number received. Then, as you can see, the numbers drop significantly. The delta usually is what I've referred to before, which is that it wasn't wrongdoing and it's been sent to another process, or, as Mary Anne indicated, a clarification has been provided and they say, “Okay, I now understand that this wasn't wrongdoing.”

A lot of that happens as well, and that's how the process should work. It allows the employee to sleep well at night. They know they haven't witnessed something that is a wrongdoing and they're okay with that now. That is an important part of what this act does.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Within this process, at what point do we see an opportunity for the person against whom wrongdoing is alleged to defend themselves? Where does the procedural fairness come into play when allegations of wrongdoing have been made against them?

[Carl Trottier]

I'll ask Mary Anne to speak to the process.

[Mary Anne Stevens]

During the investigation, they would be asked to provide information. At the end of the investigation, a report is written that summarizes the information. They would be given an opportunity to see the report and comment as to whether it is accurate from their perspective.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

In order to get protection under the act, if someone has false allegations made against them, do they then need to make some sort of a complaint about that false allegation in order to avoid having reprisals as a result of the false allegation? Do they have to become a discloser? Do they have to become a complainant under the act to get the benefits of fear of reprisal as a result of wrongful disclosure, or wrongful accusation, I should say?

[Carl Trottier]

Sorry, you may have lost us halfway through your question.