Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Carl Trottier]

So they might not be included in that number.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So why does the table not have a category with the number of cases that made it to the tribunal?

[Carl Trottier]

It's our report. The Commissioner also has his own report. It is important to analyze both reports to see the big picture of what is happening.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay. I understand.

[Carl Trottier]

You also wanted some clarifications about the number of organizations that have not disclosed information within 60 days of finding a wrongdoing.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I actually wanted to know why. Basically, this means that they didn't follow the letter of the law. Is that what it means?

[Carl Trottier]

It means that they did not meet the 60-day period set out in the act.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

What happens then?

[Carl Trottier]

Actually, the act states that the organizations must promptly and effectively disclose the information. The act does not specify a 60-day period. We have set the general objective at 60 days. It is our measure of determining what constitutes an appropriate deadline.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understand.

I have one last question.

Let's go back to the disclosures that have led to a finding of wrongdoing, which are around 100. Is it possible to know who those 100 individuals are?

[Carl Trottier]

Could you repeat the question, please? I'm looking for the information.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

The information is in the table, under “Number of disclosures received that led to a finding of wrongdoing”. About 100 whistleblowers have disclosed information that led to a finding of wrongdoing. Can we know who those 100 whistleblowers are?

I know they are protected, but as members of the committee, could we know who they are so that we can ask them about their experience and whether the process was properly carried out in their case?

[Carl Trottier]

Unfortunately, the act also protects them.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So you are saying that a parliamentary committee would not have the right to ask to meet those whistleblowers. Is that right?

I'm asking in good faith.

[Carl Trottier]

I'm also answering in good faith.

The act does not make an exception for a parliamentary committee. The act truly ensures full confidentiality.

However, I don't mind coming back before this committee five or 10 times to answer all your questions.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understand.

[Carl Trottier]

That said, I'm a bit concerned about it.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Unfortunately, we're out of time.

Mr. Weir.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I'd like to return to the goal of the act—to encourage public servants who've witnessed wrongdoing to feel comfortable coming forward. I think something that all parties on this committee are struggling with is that so few people seem to have come forward through the processes laid out by the act. It seems like we might have, at most, a few hundred who have tried to avail themselves of the process in any way, and only a handful have gone through the tribunal process. It makes us wonder whether the process really is open and encouraging to potential whistle-blowers.

I think, Mr. Trottier, your answer to this was that there were many other processes that whistle-blowers or people who perceive wrongdoing might go through before the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner or the tribunal. I wonder if you could give us any numbers or any sense of how many public servants are going through these other processes.

[Carl Trottier]

I'm sorry, I don't have that information. I think it would be very difficult to obtain, because they reside in the various departments and they're going through their own internal processes within the departments. Unfortunately, I don't have that information. As much as I'd want to share that information with this committee, I think it would be something that would be extremely difficult to obtain. It's an ongoing process where grievances are lodged daily on a number of issues, and there's an internal process in each department.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Yes, it would be very interesting to have some overall sense of how many people are actually coming forward, and whether there's still this chill where people aren't willing to come forward, or whether, as you suggest, they're actually coming forward through these alternative avenues.

It strikes me that one way the Treasury Board could get some more information about this would be by including in its workplace harassment survey some questions about whistle-blowing, about whether harassment might be a reprisal for public disclosure.

[Carl Trottier]

We do have questions on harassment, on discrimination, in the public service employee survey right now, and we're now going ahead with an annual survey that launched recently. It's going to look at mental health, harassment, and discrimination. It's going to look at a whole bunch of workplace wellness questions also. We get a good sense from employees on that.

To come back to your previous question—

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Sorry, does the survey provide a sense of whether the harassment was or was perceived to be motivated by whistle-blowing?

[Carl Trottier]

No, it doesn't. You have to understand, as I'm sure you do, that a survey is a bit of a broad shot.