Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Let's say party A makes a disclosure against party B, saying that there's wrongdoing. There was not, but they created a cloud now within the organization about party B. In order to prevent reprisal—and it could be two people at the same level within the organization—does party B then need to make a disclosure on the inaccurate disclosure in order to avoid reprisals as a result of that?

[Carl Trottier]

It's unlikely that party B would say wrongdoing has been done because it likely wouldn't fall within the definition of wrongdoing here. In all likelihood, the confidentially associated with this program protects the people involved when it is found that party B has not been a wrongdoer. There's obviously some massaging that needs to be done internally in the organization, and that's fine, but it wouldn't revert to another disclosure of wrongdoing to an employee that has mistakenly identified.... Mistakes happen, and we have to recognize that.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

We'll take the other example, then, where there's an allegation of wrongdoing and a reprisal is brought against the wrong person. Maybe Ms. Stevens can walk us through how we might be able to protect employees who, through no fault of their own, are victims of improper reprisal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

She might not be able to walk us through because you passed your seven minutes.

We will now go to Mr. Clarke.

Mr. Clarke, you have seven minutes.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Do you have the 2015-2016 report? On the second page, there's a table showing disclosure activities. I honestly don't understand it at all. So I would really like you to explain a number of things.

Walk me through this.

I would like you to help me understand the following four points.

First, there's the total number of disclosures handled—

[Carl Trottier]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm not sure which report you are referring to. I'm not sure whether I have a copy.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm talking about the annual report on the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act. I can show you the page if you wish. I added question marks to the four points that I don't understand.

[Carl Trottier]

It's the Secretariat's report, fine.

In response to your first question about the total number of disclosures handled, it's the total number of disclosures received and handled, whether they are founded or not. They are simply received and handled. That does not show whether or not they were acted upon. In 2015, there were 385.

Under that figure, there is—

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

One moment, please. In that respect, we see that the figure almost always varies between 300 and 400, or it's just under 300. Why is the number similar from one year to the next?

[Carl Trottier]

It shows a certain consistency. That's what I was trying to explain earlier. It is one of our indicators. If that number was always going up or down, it would mean that something's wrong.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understand.

[Carl Trottier]

The system is so broad that there should be consistency in the numbers. We are reassured when we see that the pattern is constant. It varies between 287 and 385.

You also wanted explanations about the disclosures received that were not acted upon. That includes the cases that we determined were not consistent with the definition, as well as the cases in which employees were basically satisfied with the explanations provided.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

For instance, for 2015-2016, the 124 disclosures received that were not acted upon are included in the 385 disclosures handled, correct?

[Carl Trottier]

Yes, it is a subset of the figure.

As for the disclosures received that led to a finding of wrongdoing, they are cases in which the department rendered a decision that was supported.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

If we go all the way back to 2011, we can see that there are about 100 cases in which the department identified a wrongdoing.

[Carl Trottier]

That's the total for all the years.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In those 100 cases, seven are currently being reviewed by the tribunal. Is that right?

Last week, I was told that seven cases were reviewed by the tribunal. I know it's the same number, but there is no relationship between the two, is there?

[Carl Trottier]

It is indeed a coincidence that the number is seven in both circumstances.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I know, but—

[Carl Trottier]

These are the seven cases in which wrongdoing was found.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

However, is it accurate to say that the seven cases before the tribunal right now are part of those 100 reported cases in the past five years?

[Carl Trottier]

Yes, they are part of the total number.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay, great. That's what I wanted to know.

[Carl Trottier]

Actually, that's not always the case. There could be cases submitted directly to the Commissioner.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Oh, really? Okay.