Evidence of meeting #70 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
9:10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
One challenge that is routinely identified and discussed at both the national and international levels is the need for ongoing information and awareness. There can never be too much.
I will admit that when I came into the job, I thought it was going to be much easier to make coming forward front of mind for people, but there's a great and valid fear of reprisal. We take—
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Is it a built-in culture? We've heard about the DND culture of intimidation with regard to speaking up against some of the procurement. That came up before. We've been discussing the Phoenix issue a lot. We have reams and reams of paper from access to information stating very clearly that there were problems with the program, but no one came forward. We've seen staff who haven't been paid go to the media rather than speak up, because they're afraid of reprisals.
9:10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think it's a combination of both institutional or bureaucratic culture and human nature. It represents an enormous challenge for an organization such as this.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm short on time. Do you have recommendations on how we can expand this? I don't want to say promote it, but....
9:10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Well, I'm hoping that the sum total of our recommendations is going to be to demonstrate to people that they shouldn't be afraid to come forward, although I fully understand why there will be that fear. My motto to myself is that if my starting point is that whistle-blowing is the right thing to do, then it shouldn't be so goldarned hard to do it. Our collective responsibility in my office is to try to lower that burden.
We have included in the binders copies of our outreach and communication material that we distribute and that we continue to refine and produce. I believe we have also provided—
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm just going to interrupt you. You mentioned within your department, which is great, but how do we get it out to the other departments—procurement, DND, transport? How do we get it out to them? Do we build it into their mandate letters into the future?
9:15 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think that any possible effort to raise awareness and encouragement is important. I would like to see questions asked in the public service employment survey. I would personally be very supportive of having, in every manager's performance assessment, a formal requirement that they raise the issue of whistle-blowing within their organization.
Our focus group test results, which we have included for your review, indicate the importance of senior management's role in this trickle-down—I don't want to say permission or approval—acceptance of whistle-blowing. It really is a project of normalization, if I can use that word.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Perfect.
We're very short of time. You mentioned the reverse onus on reprisal, which I think is wonderful. I think we discussed with a previous witness about a reverse onus also for investigation of whistle-blowing. If I bring up something, instead of the department having time to hide it or brush it up, they're required to prove it—there's a reverse onus of proof on that—as opposed to just hiding it.
Is that plausible, or is—?
9:15 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I don't know if it would affect the actual investigative process. Departments have the statutory obligation to comply. Failure to do so is a criminal offence. I think the reversal of an onus is relevant before a decision-making body like the tribunal—
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I just have one last the question before I'm out of time. I'm sorry, but we're just so short of time.
I noticed in looking at a chart here that it shows disclosures of wrongdoing, 86; disclosures of wrongdoing carried from previous years, 39; reprisal complaints, 30. It's pretty even across the last five years.
Is there a general correlation between the reprisals and the number of reports? Are these reprisals related to those reports, or are they other reprisals?
9:15 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We can accept a reprisal whether or not a person made a disclosure to our office. The reprisal is not contingent upon there having been a founded case of wrongdoing in any way. It's just anybody who comes forward. Under that broad definition—
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
9:15 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Not necessarily, no.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay, thank you.
Again, I was sorry to interrupt, but we were short of time.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thanks very much.
I'm very pleased to hear the recommendation in favour of a reverse onus, as well as including whistle-blower issues in surveys of the federal public service. These are topics that we've discussed at our last couple of meetings.
I do want to get a little bit into the case of your predecessor integrity commissioner, Christiane Ouimet. It seems to me that the office was somewhat tainted by the fact that the Auditor General determined that she had failed to fulfill her mandate. Indeed she was accused of many of the same behaviours that the office should be trying to combat in the federal public service.
I wonder if you could speak to that, and speak to how it's affected the office and your work in it.
9:15 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chair, that period in our history...and I guess I could perhaps understate it by saying that it was a rocky start to the new Integrity Commissioner's office. The onus that it has put on the organization is certainly to continually reassure people that when they do come to our office, they will be treated confidentially and fairly and fully and will be given the full benefit of the law.
It has formed part of our identity, but that is now almost seven years ago, so I'm hoping that our successes and achievements following the departure of the first commissioner have gone a very long way to reassuring people. I hope that the 16 recommendations that I'm tabling before you today are a confirmation of the commitment of my office to protecting people who come forward and to supporting whistle-blowers.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Do you feel that the effort to get past it has succeeded, or do you think that public servants looking at the office, knowing that you were working very closely with Madame Ouimet, would be apprehensive or nervous about approaching you or the organization based on that history?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Obviously I hope that would not be the case. I can't think of a single incident in which someone has said they won't come forward because of that. I hope that my statements, my actions, my words, and my decisions as commissioner, which is a position I've held for just less than two years, would go a significant way to dissuading any discouragement that might otherwise be there.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
I want to also give you an opportunity to respond to the Auditor General's spring 2014 report, which I think was quite critical of the way that you and Mario Dion managed a couple of whistle-blower cases. There were very long delays, and confidential files went missing. This is part of the background that our committee looks at. I want to get your take on it, your response to it.
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Yes, that report was specifically in relation to a delay on two cases, I believe, so it was confined. Following that.... In fact, even before that report was tabled, we were putting in place internal standards to ensure that we have the structures in place and, quite frankly, the people in place—and enough people, which is a recurring challenge—to get the work done and to avoid those kinds of delays.
We have service standards in place now to deal with our cases: 90 days to do an initial case analysis, and a year to complete an investigation, with a target of 80%. As of today, I believe we're above the 90% mark. My two colleagues here and another colleague, our director of operations, meet every three weeks to go over files to ensure that delays are identified and managed appropriately.
There will be cases, I have to say, in which we have 20 or 30 witnesses, and some of those witnesses will be unavailable and some of them are seeking legal representation. All of that contributes to delay, but we have set our own internal service standards to monitor our own ability to do our work in a timely fashion.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Excellent.
As other committee members have mentioned, at our last meeting we heard from a number of civil society groups, outside advocates on whistle-blower protection. Some of them are in the room today. I wonder what steps you've taken to engage with that community to work with those outside experts to improve the process.
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We work with what I would describe as a broad network of people whose input we're interested in taking into account. We've listened to voices, and dissenting voices are of course part of a democracy. I have an advisory committee on which we have significant union and organizational representation.
I think that in the current iteration of that external advisory committee we have a rich and broad representation of the voices of public servants. It's public servants who are our primary stakeholders. Of course, members of the public can also come forward and make a disclosure to our office, but the primary focus is certainly on public servants.
Also, under our act, “wrongdoing” is in or related to the federal public sector.
