Evidence of meeting #70 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for coming.
I want to go to your chart here, Mr. Friday, to the third tab in the document you have provided. Could you provide us with a sense of the number of disclosures of wrongdoing that are received but not analyzed? You're starting at a number of disclosures that are received and analyzed. How many disclosures are you receiving and not analyzing?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
None. All disclosures, just to explain the process—
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
No, no, that's fine. I want to move through the chart here.
The next thing we have is investigations launched. We see that over, let's say, the previous nine years, somewhere between a sixth and a tenth of investigations were launched as a result of the analysis. Over the past few months, I guess this financial year, about a third of the disclosures being received and analyzed are getting an investigation. Can you explain why this great uptick is occurring?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Do you mean the increase in investigations?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I would like to think that it demonstrates good leadership on the commissioner's part.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay, but how come it wasn't happening in the previous years?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
My approach has been to always use the investigative process to determine whether or not something does constitute wrongdoing. At the—
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Sure, that's fine, Mr. Friday, but how come it wasn't happening for the previous nine years?
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think it could also be the fact that the kinds of cases we're getting now are more focused on the actual understanding of what wrongdoing is. For example, in the first couple of years we were getting an enormous number of staffing complaints that were really the purview of the Public Service Commission. I think we're getting fewer of those now. I think we're getting more cases that are, if I may say, stronger evidence cases—
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
—that actually deal with wrongdoing as defined under our act.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay. That's fine.
There seems to be a great uptick, then, in the number of cases. If you're not receiving labour relations cases and you are receiving cases that relate to actual wrongdoing from previous years, why do you see that coming forward now as opposed to...?
We now have 65 cases, and I'm assuming that we have to gross this up by, I don't know, about 50% in terms of the actual number of investigations occurring just over the short span of a year. Why do you feel that so many more legitimate allegations of wrongdoing are coming up now, when they hadn't been coming up over the previous nine years, when it was all labour relations?
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think one of the key reasons for this is awareness of our office. I have to say that it still surprises me, when I'm doing a public speaking event or I'm at a meeting or other event of some kind, that people are still surprised to learn that there is a federal public sector whistle-blowing regime.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
We were told last week that everyone has it in their contract. They have a code of conduct that includes an explanation. Their employment contract states that this office exists and describes its purpose and how to go there for help, although, if I look at previous years, it seems that people weren't necessarily helped. They're being made aware of it, but they're not listening, I guess, or is it perhaps that the disclosure within their employment contract isn't sufficient disclosure?
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think one of the challenges is to ask whether we want every public servant to be thinking about reprisal and blowing the whistle every day of the week, or whether, to use the fire station analogy, they know that if something happens, there's a process they can go to that will support them, and they know exactly where it is.
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
There's an ongoing awareness, if I can put it that way.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Yes.
As someone who might have received two separate flyers, one that tells me to be afraid of whistle-blowing and one that encourages me to engage in whistle-blowing, even though the experts who came last week told us that it might be one of the worst things we could do for our lives, I still see 65% of cases of whistle-blowing not being investigated.
It's not many, so for the last three or four years, perhaps you could provide us with a breakdown of the reasons in terms of the analysis of wrongdoing received. You could group them into buckets, I'm sure. You described some of the buckets. Last year 73 investigations were analyzed but not launched. The previous year, 83 disclosures were received with no investigation launched, and maybe this year 44 were received but not launched. This would give us a sense of why people's concerns aren't being treated with the same level of respect or why, through the analysis process, they might disappear.
You could just come back to us with that information.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Unfortunately, Mr. Friday, we'll have to get you to do that, submit that in written form, since we're out of time.
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
If I may respond—
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
We're well over time.
Mr. Clarke, you have the floor for five minutes.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Friday, I am coming back to you. You are popular this morning, I see.
I am going to talk about the statistics again, and—
the total number of reprisal complaints received and analyzed.
I guess I could have said that in French.
For example, in 2008-2009, there were 20 complaints of reprisals. Basically, 20 public servants told you that they had suffered reprisals after having made a disclosure. That's what it means.
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
The link is vital. Under the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, reprisals…
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Whether or not it is confirmed, a person feels that it has happened.
In 2008, 20 people came to your office. But no investigation took place as a result.
Moving to 2009, two investigations took place. But nothing actually happened.
Why, every year without fail, do we see a significant number of people who feel that they have been the object of reprisals, but you find that it is not the case? Is there a problem with the authority? I do not know what is going on.