Government Operations Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Welcome and good morning.

Mr. Manchanda, who do you report to, please?

[Amipal Manchanda]

I report directly to the deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's great, thanks.

Ms. Glover with Public Works, you're obviously aware of Phoenix. We spoke to whistle-blowers, and they talked about how if we had a better whistle-blower regime this wouldn't have happened. We've also heard that there's a strong belief across the board that there's a culture of intimidation, or that a fear of reprisals is very strong throughout the public service.

We had all the warning signs. We had third-party reports that there were issues with Phoenix. We had the unions coming forward. We had the committee bringing it up publicly. What is there in our culture, say within Public Works, that people weren't able to come forward? I know it's not you, but you mentioned that the deputy minister is ultimately responsible. The deputy minister—not the current one, the previous one—is also the one who signed off on the recommendation for Phoenix. You almost have the fox in charge of the henhouse in a way. In a department, how are people going to whistle-blow to the person who is ultimately responsible for that program, who also was ultimately responsible for going ahead?

[Barbara Glover]

I have two or three threads to that question.

I don't accept—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I hate to say this. Try to be brief because I have a couple of other questions.

[Barbara Glover]

Okay, I'll try.

It can be the case that employees or unions or executives do not necessarily agree with the policy of the Government of Canada. It happens.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Did our system fail in this case?

[Barbara Glover]

Disagreement with policy, disagreement with implementation, or maybe, after the fact, not being very happy with implementation, and rightly so, obviously, in this case.... It's not evident that that is equivalent to a wrongdoing, whether under the act or in our other investigative roles that I've talked about. I will say, as you know, that the Office of the Auditor General is in fact doing a review, and we will see what we will see when those recommendations come out.

I do want to say in regard to the deputy being the fox in the henhouse that I have never worked for a deputy in this department—I've had three, and three associates—who tried to mislead, direct me to mislead, or direct our investigations to come to a different finding.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. Are you surveying your staff on the effectiveness of the disclosure act?

[Barbara Glover]

The PSES, I believe, has been brought to this table by TBS. It does ask questions about fear of reprisal. You mentioned yourself that those are not impressive, either across government or in our own department.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you know what your survey numbers are at Public Works?

[Barbara Glover]

Yes, 44% would not be worried about bringing something forward. The exact question escapes me.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Forty-four percent are not.

[Barbara Glover]

I'm sorry, so the majority—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That means 56% are.

[Barbara Glover]

We recognize that. We are doing a lot of work to try to create a climate that is—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How many years have you been doing the reports? Is this the one time? Was it 50% last year, 50% the year before, or...?

[Barbara Glover]

The results have not been impressive over the years. We continue every year, every month, every week—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm quickly running out of time. There's obviously a problem here if it's not getting fixed, but is it because there's a lack of confidence in the way the act is set up?

[Barbara Glover]

I don't think it's about the act. The question in fact isn't about the act. It's about just bringing forward a complaint, so it's more general than that.

Look, I believe that in the private sector, that in the public sector, and in NGOs, anyone who is going to bring forward a complaint typically will worry. The job here is to find a way to remove that worry.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Ms. Lamothe, just quickly, you've had two issues brought forward in the last three years for, I think you said, 5,500 staff. Does that not set off, with your massive budget, alarm bells that we're missing something, that we're not doing enough to encourage people or to get information out, or to protect people? Or is your department perfect?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Line Lamothe]

My response to this is in terms of getting information out, in terms of outreach. We do a lot of that in the department.

The other part of the answer is in terms of the other mechanisms that are within the purview of public servants. For example, there's the grievance process under the Public Service Labour Relations Act.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I know that, but with two out of 5,500 staff over a three-year period...? Do you believe that, again, as we're seeing with Public Works, there's a serious concern public servants have of coming forward?

[Line Lamothe]

Well, the other aspect is in terms of the definition of wrongdoing as it is defined in the act. So when we look at this in terms of what wrongdoing is, that's another factor to consider.