Government Operations Committee on April 11th, 2017

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Peter Drucker once said that you can’t manage what you can’t measure. How do we measure the level to ensure there's non-partisanship, if our goal so far has been to make people partially aware of the rules?

[Patrick Borbey]

I'd have to look at the data there, too. I know there have been surveys and, in fact, if I remember well, the surveys indicate that the level of awareness actually is lower among younger public servants.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Well, to a moderate extent. I mean, it's not exactly—

[Patrick Borbey]

We do need to look at that, and ways we can ensure that, through the right training and awareness programs, all public servants understand their roles and responsibilities.

Then, of course, from time to time we do have public servants who come forward, and decide to run for office, or to get involved in political activities. Where they formally make the request, those are easy to measure in terms of agreement or disagreement with the request. It's more if individual Canadians are getting involved in political activities on their own. I talked about social media. How do you manage that and ensure they understand there are some limitations? Who can put out a sign on their lawn during an election, and who can't? I recognize those are not easy questions. I'll certainly have to look into that in my new responsibilities.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We now have Madam Shanahan for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Borbey, for being here with us today. I'm going to take advantage of your presence to invoke some of the comments that we've had in the public accounts committee from the Auditor General, Mr. Ferguson, regarding what he sees as accountability challenges in the public service. On the technical front, there are of course data systems, the quality of data that is being used for analysis, and performance indicators. We often hear from Mr. Ferguson about the lack of performance indicators, and particularly that a lot of them tend to measure activities but not so much about what the actual benefit is to citizens. I suspect that a lot of that is culture-related.

Do you agree with the Auditor General's remarks about these being the pressing issues, and what is your reaction?

[Patrick Borbey]

Mr. Chair, I would have to study those remarks a little bit more carefully, but I do agree that we haven't always done a great job in the public service in terms of linking the programs that we manage and the funds that are entrusted to us with results in a very precise way. I know that in my experience at Canadian Heritage, we've done a lot of work to improve in that area. I certainly think we're making the right progress, but we still have a long way to go.

With respect to the Public Service Commission, I know that it's a data-rich organization, and a lot of that data has actually been made available. We're pushing for more open data that's available to all. I would have to dive into that to be able to understand how we're using the data, and how we are demonstrating outcomes—more than just results, but good outcomes—for Canadians, based on the work that we do, and our responsibilities with respect to recruiting in the public service. I would agree that we have work to do in that area.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for that. Continuing in that vein, certainly it's the responsibility of every deputy minister to respond any time their department is audited. One thing we've been trying to do in the public accounts committee is to say that we have to look at past performance, but we're also trying to be proactive and constructive in providing deputy ministers and their departments a chance to improve and to show us how they're going to improve with the filing of action plans and that sort of thing.

Can you tell me what you think of that approach? Do you have any suggestions or anything that you're thinking about to be more proactive?

[Patrick Borbey]

Over my career I certainly have had my share of working with audits, including with the Auditor General. I have sat on audit committees, including one now at Canadian Heritage, so I know a fair bit about the area. I do need to get a better understanding of how the audit world works at the Public Service Commission, because the organization has significantly changed its approach with the new direction for staffing. It's no longer doing entity audits. It has basically delegated to deputies the responsibilities for doing the monitoring and reporting on the use of the appointment authorities. The Public Service Commission is more concentrating on system-wide audits and using surveys such as the staffing survey to be able to see what the trends are and see whether there are some areas in which there are some problems. There is still the possibility of doing audit work on a specific organization if there is a reason to do that, but again, that's an area that I'm going to have to dive into very quickly in my new responsibilities.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you.

Do I have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have less than a minute.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Is there anything else you'd like to share with us continuing in that vein? We've heard of horizontal programs that cross different departments such as the Beyond the Border initiative that took place over a number of years and over a number of departments.

How would you handle that? What would be your approach there?

[Patrick Borbey]

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure that's really in my area of responsibility, because that's getting into a different type of audit. I have experience working in audits related to the economic action plans on things like the infrastructure. I know we are going to be doing some audit work related to the implementation of Canada's 150th anniversary. That's an example of something on which we would work with a large number of departments and agencies, so clearly, we are going to be doing some.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. McCauley, we'll come back to you.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have one quick question, Mr. Borbey. From your experience up north dealing with the indigenous, do you have any thoughts on better attracting or reaching out to the indigenous people for public service?

[Patrick Borbey]

Absolutely. Mr. Chair, this is an area where I don't think we're tapping into the full potential. My understanding is that it's less so in terms of attracting, but more in retaining. We have a lot of people who are leaving after a few years. Whether it's barriers related to access to promotions or higher positions, whether the work does not fit their expectations, or whether they are acquiring skills and then applying them in other areas, including going back to their communities, which would be a positive thing I would say, clearly, we have to do a better job.

There are a couple of initiatives that I am aware of. Last year Gina Wilson, who is an associate deputy minister and champion for aboriginal federal employees, launched a special student recruitment program. I think over 100 indigenous students were recruited and two of them were actually housed in our department. Sometimes targeted initiatives like this are important. This year there will be the same kind of initiative targeting persons with disabilities. I think that's one way. It's a small way, but it actually helps.

The Public Service Commission also runs an inventory of pre-qualified indigenous people. I'd like to learn more about how that has developed, how it's being used by departments, and whether people are aware that they can easily have access to that pool, so that with very little administrative work, they might be able to bring these people into their organizations.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Excellent. Thank you very much. I look forward to it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Go ahead, Madam Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much.

You have a very impressive resumé, but you have quite a few challenges that you're going to be facing taking the public service into the 21st century. I have two questions and I think I'm going to follow up with what Madam Shanahan asked.

There is a culture within the public service which is more like a military culture. If you came in early, you could climb up the ladder. That poses a challenge, for example, to women and minorities, who are are not really reflected in the leadership of the public service, like ADMs or DMs. How are you going to get gender parity or visible minority parity within the public service?

[Patrick Borbey]

Mr. Chair, that's a very good question.

I think we've made a lot of progress over the last number of years, particularly in terms of gender parity. There are more and more women deputy ministers, associate deputy ministers, and assistant deputy ministers.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you have a percentage?

[Patrick Borbey]

I don't have data with me, but certainly I can look into that and get back to you.

In my experience in the organizations in which I've worked, I think we've made a huge amount of progress. I think there are still some issues in terms of visible minorities, who feel that there are barriers. Even in our department, Canadian Heritage, I don't think we are truly representative in that area. We've made some progress over the last couple of years. I have been an advocate of using the flexibility that is available under the Public Service Employment Act to be able to target recruitment. In some cases when we know the kind of person we're looking for and we have a very highly qualified candidate, then I think we should not be running a process where we're going to be talking to or interviewing dozens of people. I think we should be looking at a different way to do our due diligence and ensure that merit is respected, but target a particular individual. We've done that in our department recently in one position and it has worked out absolutely magnificently.

I know it ruffles some feathers sometimes because people want to have access to promotions, but I think we have to take measures like this in some cases where there are clearly gaps that we need to fill.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That brings another question to mind. Whenever I talk to younger people or visible minorities who are qualified, they do not know how to approach government jobs and there is always this perception that it is who you know and not what you know. How are you going to overcome that perception to show that it is merit-based rather than connection-based?

[Patrick Borbey]

That's a fundamental question, Mr. Chair. The Public Service Commission is absolutely committed to the merit principle and to fairness, transparency, and openness in all of its processes. We ensure through our delegation of authority to deputy ministers that they also are committed to this, so that at the end of the day, qualified candidates are hired and it's not because you know someone in the public service.