Government Operations Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 99th meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. Today's meeting will continue our study of Bill C-24. I would like to welcome our minister with us today, the Honourable Bardish Chagger.

Welcome, Minister, thank you for being here.

Colleagues, we will have the minister with us for approximately one hour. Following that, the PCO officials will remain until 12:45, if needed. I will need at least 15 minutes at the end of the meeting to deal with committee business so our analysts can discuss with you the drafting of our report on government advertising. If, however, questions have been exhausted prior to that, we will suspend, excuse the witnesses, and go directly in camera to talk about the draft report.

Minister, I understand you have some opening remarks. We'll try to keep your remarks to about 10 minutes. If it looks like you're going over time, I'll try to catch your attention and ask you to wrap it up so we have more time for questions from our colleagues around the table.

With that, Minister, the floor is yours.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and colleagues.

I bring with me today my deputy, as well as Martha, a privy council officer.

Today, it is my pleasure to speak with you on how the government is equalizing the status of all members of the Prime Minister's ministerial team and ensuring that the government continues to have the flexibility to deliver on its commitments to Canadians.

The Salaries Act authorizes the payment, out of the consolidated revenue fund, of a ministerial salary to individuals who have been appointed to ministerial positions listed in that act. There are currently 35 ministerial positions listed in the Salaries Act, including the position of prime minister. From time to time, the list of ministers in the Salaries Act changes to align with the priorities of the government of the day and the prime minister's preference with respect to the composition of the ministry. This is not new. Legislation amending the list of ministers in the Salaries Act was enacted in 2005, 2012, and 2013.

Canada needs a modern, agile, and flexible government that's organized in a way that is suited to delivering on its priorities and commitments. These amendments help us to do precisely that.

The legislation does away with administrative distinctions and makes equal the status of all ministers in the current ministry by adding to the Salaries Act five ministerial positions that will replace five current minister of state appointments. Conventionally, ministers of state have been considered junior ministers because they have most often been appointed to assist other ministers with their portfolio responsibilities. This way of thinking and operating is not suited to the current content, as it fails to address both the importance of the subject matters at issue and the value of equality to this Prime Minister and our government more broadly.

The five new ministerial positions to be added to the act are the Minister of La Francophonie; the Minister of Small Business and Tourism; the Minister of Science; the Minister of Status of Women; and the Minister of Sport and Persons with Disabilities.

These are important positions, with roles and responsibilities becoming of full ministers.

The Minister of International Development and La Francophonie pursues Canada's strong and sustained commitment to the 80 member states and governments of the Francophonie. Together these constitute more than one-third of the United Nations' membership, and they account for a population of more than 890 million people worldwide, including 220 million French speakers.

The Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development contributes to the competitiveness of Canada in a global, knowledge-based economy through supporting scientific research and the integration of scientific considerations in the government's investment and policy choices. The Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development is the lead minister for a number of science-related funding programs, including the Canada research chairs and several portfolio agencies, such as the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, NSERC. Innovation is a key priority for our government, and science will help us continue to build an economy that is both environmentally sustainable and prosperous.

The Minister of Sport and Persons with Disabilities promotes healthier Canadians through sport and recreation and works to ensure greater accessibility and opportunities for Canadians with disabilities. The minister has been tasked with developing legislation to transform how the Government of Canada addresses accessibility and leads on a number of important funding programs, including the enabling accessibility fund.

The Minister of Status of Women champions equality, addresses issues of gender-based violence, advances the prosperity and economic security of women, and works to increase the representation of women in leadership and decision-making roles.

In my role as Minister of Small Business and Tourism, I support Canada's small businesses, the backbone of our economy, by helping them grow through trade and innovation in order to create jobs, support communities, and launch world-class companies. I am also working to grow Canada's tourism industries by promoting Canada as a world-class destination for international tourists.

As you can see, these portfolios are important to our economy, to Canadians, and to the government. Formalizing the status of these five appointments as ministers in full standing will reflect the importance of these five positions and the expectations placed on the people who occupy them. Once these positions are added to the Salaries Act, with the adoption of Bill C-24, the orders in council that assign these ministers to assist other ministers will be repealed, and these ministers will be in law what they already are in practice: full ministers.

I would like to take a moment to address the issue of cost. The cost of the current ministry will not change with the enactment of Bill C-24. Only the payment mechanism will change. Let me explain. Ministers whose positions are listed in the Salaries Act receive their ministerial salaries under that authority and from the consolidated revenue fund. Ministers appointed under the Ministries and Ministers of State Act receive salaries determined by the Prime Minister, and they are paid from the applicable departmental vote, as provided for in annual appropriation acts. That has been the legislative framework for over two decades. Once BillC-24 is passed, the former ministers of state will be appointed to the new Salaries Act positions and will be paid under the authority of that act.

All 30 members of the Prime Minister's ministerial team already receive the same ministerial salary. That has been the case since our first day in office, and it will not change with the enactment of this bill.

Bill C-24 will create a framework that will allow these ministers to continue to be supported by existing departments in carrying out their responsibilities. No new departments will need to be created as a result of this legislation.

Bill C-24 will increase the number of ministers that could be paid a ministerial salary under the Salaries Act from 35 to 37, including the Prime Minister, which represents an increase of two ministerial positions that could be paid from the consolidated revenue fund. Let me point out, however, that the Prime Minister currently has 34 ministerial positions available to him under the Salaries Act, but he has appointed only 30 individuals to the ministry. This bill is not fundamentally aimed at growing the ministry. Its goal is simply to formalize in legislation the equal status of the current ministry and to modernize the act to enable more flexible and adaptable ministries in the future.

Bill C-24 amendments are not just about addressing government priorities in the immediate term. We also want to ensure that future ministries can be structured in ways that meet emerging priorities.

To enhance the flexibility of government, Bill C-24 would add three untitled ministerial positions to the Salaries Act. These positions can be titled at the discretion of the Prime Minister to reflect the priorities of the time. In this way, the Prime Minister can adjust his or her cabinet and its positions to respond to changing priorities or challenges facing the country.

The alignment of all regional development agencies under one portfolio, especially under the minister responsible for national economic development, is another example of this. We now have regional and national expertise all working together. This creates better synergy and opportunities for greater progress, and provides the flexibility needed to make a real impact in communities across Canada.

The regional development agencies will all continue to fulfill their mandates of supporting small and medium-sized enterprises in becoming more innovative, productive, and export oriented. They will continue to work with communities and economic development organizations to identify and generate opportunities for local economic growth. They will also continue to provide programs and services to entrepreneurs and communities that build on the distinct competitive regional advantage. All the regional agencies working together will ensure cohesion between them, help grow the economy, and deliver results to Canadians in all regions of the country.

Having them all report to Parliament, to the minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, serves to highlight the important role economic development plays across Canada's regions.

Finally, the legislation also changes the legal title of the Minister of Infrastructure, Communities and Intergovernmental Affairs to the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities to reflect the fact that the Prime Minister has taken on the role of Intergovernmental Affairs Minister.

To conclude, these changes formalize what has already been in practice since day one of this government. The Prime Minister's cabinet is a group of equals, and non-legislative steps have already been taken to recognize the equal status of its members. These amendments address an administrative constraint in current legislation and catch it up with the structure of the ministry as it operates today.

We are resolute in our belief that a modern ministry that prioritizes equality, fairness, and flexibility will provide better outcomes for all Canadians.

I would like to thank the honourable members of this committee for their time and for inviting me to share my views. I look forward to your questions and your comments.

With that, Mr. Chair, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, and thank you for being so concise with your remarks.

We'll now go to our round of questions. It will be a seven-minute round to begin with.

Madame Shanahan, you're first up.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, thank you for being with us this morning.

This is an interesting discussion in a way. Bill C-24 is administrative legislation, given that it amends an existing act. It does, however, make fundamental changes to our system and the way in which government ministries are organized.

One of the amendments proposed in Bill C-24 is the removal of references to a certain number of ministries that would no longer exist, that is, the regional development agencies, which would be consolidated under the Department of Infrastructure and Communities.

How will that affect economic development in regions of the country whose needs are different?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Thank you for your question.

I believe the change will be positive for the regions because they will all be able to work together. Currently, some regions can't share best practices they are using effectively with other regions. When all regional development organizations have the capacity to work together, under a single portfolio, it is easier to share best practices.

I believe that we have to always support the regional diversity of our country, so regional development agencies will continue to do the work that they do. They will continue to be present in the regions, but they will not only have regional expertise; they will also now have national expertise by being able to work under one minister.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that.

I'd like to stay on this topic.

Under the current structure, the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development is responsible for the administration of the regional development agencies.

Do you think the potential exists for disputes to arise during decision-making, owing to different portfolio priorities?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

During the election campaign, we talked to Canadians and they told us that the government needed to do a better job of working together in a united way.

Having different perspectives and views is a good thing, but working together and contributing to discussions in order to move the greater interests of Canadians forward must always be key.

Yes, there may be times when there is disagreement, but if we can work better together and have those real conversations, I believe we will better serve the needs of Canadians and the diversity of this country.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Without getting into cabinet confidentiality, do you have an example you can speak to us about, where it was beneficial to have the regional development agencies under one ministry?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

The other hat I wear is as Minister of Small Business and Tourism. We came out with a tourism strategy by working with provinces, territories, and municipalities. What we were able to see was that there were certain regions that had an approach that other regions were not using. By being able to work better together and communicate with each other, they were able to share those best practices.

Let's take ACOA as an example. The tourism industry is essential in the Atlantic region. They support their small and medium-sized businesses in a different way than, let's say, WD. Right now, they are able to say what they are doing and exchange ideas.

When it comes to the tourism vision, we were able to see that there are better opportunities for small businesses across the country now to work together because they have things in common. Without that conversation coming together, it was not the case. Now that they're working together and have a reason to come together, it's about strengthening our country as one country, but we will never forget the diversity of our regions.

When the Prime Minister talks about diversity as our strength, he is not only talking about the shells that we occupy; he's talking about our experiences, our regional diversity, and so forth. We will always promote that, because that is what strengthens Canada.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I thank you very much for that, because you're here in your function, of course, Minister, as House Leader, but you also wear that other hat as the Minister of Small Business and Tourism.

Do I have time for another question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have about two and a half minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

This is for Mr. McCowan. This would be around the numbers, the salary costs that we're looking at. Apparently, we're looking at an additional cost of approximately $20,000 per minister of state that will be retrieved entirely from the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.

Have all the ministers who are affected already accepted the increased salary? Is it retroactive? What is the total financial impact of this initiative, which is five times $20,000, or $100,000, that is going to be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund?

[Ian McCowan, Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office]

All of the ministers have been paid the same salary since day one. What is going to change is the funding mechanism, if you will. For ministers who are appointed under the Salaries Act, those funds flow from the consolidated revenue fund.

For ministers of state, funds flow under appropriations. If the changes to the Salaries Act were to become law, the salaries of all of the ministers and cabinet would flow from the consolidated revenue fund. It's just a question of which stream the funding comes through, but all of the ministers have been paid the same amount since day one.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay, thank you very much.

That's all for me, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll go to Mr. McCauley, for seven minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, welcome.

Welcome, Mr. McCowan, and Ms. Boyle, as well.

Mr. McCowan, I will just go back to your comment, “from day one”. I understand that. Was it not back paid from day one? I recall—and perhaps my memory is foggy—that this all came about when our previous leader commented that despite this gender equity, the ministers of state, the lower paid junior ministers, were all women. That's when we said, “Oh, no. We're going to go back and fix this.”

Was it in their original letters of offer from the very second they came aboard, or was it back-dated a week or two weeks later?

[Ian McCowan]

I'm going to have to go back and check on that. My understanding, and perhaps Ms. Boyle can—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The minister, I assume, would know.

[Ian McCowan]

My understanding is that it has been the same since day one, but Minister, I....

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

It has been the same since day one.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Perfect.

Do you believe that Bill C-24 is all about making the pay equal, or do you believe it also makes the responsibilities equal?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I really believe it's about the decisions at the cabinet table and having the voices represented, because opinions matter and diversity of opinion matters. We know that these portfolios are essential to the growth of the economy and, I would say, to the betterment of Canadians. I think that's what it is; equal ministers with equal opportunity.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But the bill doesn't actually change any of their powers or authorities. Am I correct in that?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

It comes down to how you want to view that. For me and the vision of this government, it's really about the whole-of-government approach, and working together. We know that when it comes to departments as well, there are many things in common.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll tell you what I'm getting at. Ministers' authority and power are granted and derived from the Financial Administration Act. Bill C-24 doesn't appear to make changes to that act that grant such powers to the old ministers of state.

For example, the Minister of Status of Women is still not able to deliver a memorandum to cabinet without it being co-signed by the Minister of Heritage. That's what I'm getting at: this bill doesn't address their actual authorities. It's optics. We're changing the salaries, but the Minister of Status of Women, for example, to deliver a memorandum to our cabinet, still has to have another minister who is technically part of her department co-sign.