Government Operations Committee on May 11th, 2020

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

As do we. It doesn't have to be as complicated as is being presented here today.

You frame these benefits specifically in terms of tax convictions, yet we know that most of these are structured settlements that happen in a civil matter outside of the public eye, probably in non-disclosure protected deals. By a simple yes or no, aside from the companies that are found guilty of tax evasion, will companies or their subsidiaries that use these tax savings to legally but, I would argue, irregularly pay less tax be eligible for the millions of dollars in the large business credit?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As I was saying to my colleague, my job as minister is to manage the programs. If my colleague wants more information on the criteria, I suggest he addresses his question to the Minister of Finance.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I will note that the question was not answered.

I will say, however, that I did get feedback from my constituents here that your front-line CRA workers here in Hamilton Centre are doing an incredible job under this stress and this pressure. I did want to go on the record and say that to you, to end on perhaps a more amicable note.

Mr. Chair, it's back to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you so much, Mr. Green.

We'll go now to our four-minute round of questioning, starting with Mr. Morantz.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, literally hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent in an unprecedented way in order to cope with the crisis. What is it that your agency is specifically doing? What measures are specifically being undertaken to ensure that there is accountability for all these hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayers' money that are being spent?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I thank my colleague for the question.

The Government of Canada is indeed working very hard. We are experiencing the most severe crisis we have had since the Second World War. A lot of money...

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. There's a limited amount of time. I would like the minister to answer the specific question. What measures are there for accountability?

We know that we're going through a hard time. What are the accountability measures for hundreds of millions of dollars?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As I was saying, the agency has verification mechanisms. Right now, we are focusing all our energies on putting money back into the taxpayers' pockets. When the crisis is over, we will use our usual verification mechanisms.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

In the finance committee meeting on April 16th, I asked your officials about problems with the call centres, and they seemed quite proud of their answer. They said that according to your internal study, 88% of Canadians who called your call centres got accurate information. Of course that meant that 12% did not. Do you think that this is good enough, Madam Minister?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We recognize that there is a problem with the high volume of applications for all the new programs we have put in place. For this reason, we strongly encourage people to use the online services. I am very proud of the fact that we have been able to reach close to 7.5 million Canadians. There is more work to be done. It's not perfect, but we look for solutions on an ongoing basis.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I will finish by adding that two reports, the Stantec report and the CFIB report, which were both released very recently, had far worse results than your internal report. According to Stantec, which you had commissioned on your own, 87% of Canadians were dissatisfied with the service. Now, with the added volume of calls, how can Canadians be assured that they're going to have their paper returns processed in time and other questions answered accurately?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As I mentioned earlier, given the exceptional global situation—on this we agree—our government's priority is to ensure that people receive the Canada Emergency Benefit and the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. So we've put all of our energies into getting money back to Canadians. We continue to process tax returns so that people receive their money as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll now go to Mr. Weiler for four minutes, please.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Minister and other witnesses, for joining our committee meeting today.

I want to start by saying thank you for the incredible work that all the folks at the CRA have done to get these benefits out. The numbers are truly astounding. The feedback that I've heard is that the process has been fairly simple. I know that even with the wage subsidy, businesses in my riding are already receiving that in their bank accounts.

Minister, given that these benefits are being disbursed very quickly and given that you mentioned that ensuring the sanctity of these programs and ensuring they're not abused is going to be done after the fact, I was hoping you could explain how exactly the government intends to handle fraud related to the emergency response benefit.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

These programs were put in place to ensure that people were able to pay for their groceries and housing, despite the high number of applications. When we talk about the 7.5 million people who have applied for the CERB, we can see that there was an urgent need to reach out to Canadians. We have put these programs in place and counted on the good faith of Canadians, trusting that people will only apply for them if they really need them.

As I was saying, there are mechanisms in place. Mr. Vermaeten is responsible for this area. He could tell you what kind of auditing could be done with the taxpayers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm not sure if one of the other witnesses wants to try—

[Frank Vermaeten, Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency]

I'd be happy to speak to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Yes. Go ahead, please, sir.

[Frank Vermaeten]

I think we're doing a lot. We have a lot of systems in place to ensure that the right people are getting the money.

We are the CRA. We have a lot of information that we collect regularly on people, such as the amount of money they have earned and the amount of money they're going to earn this year. We have those records. We have that, and the CERB, as you know, is based on social insurance numbers, so we can do a matching between the amounts that individuals receive through the CERB and the income they're earning.

We're also asking employers to provide us with additional information in February of next year on the T4 information they provide to us so that we know when people earned income and when they were rehired.

That way, I think we'll be able to do a very good job of matching the two. If there is a mismatch, we'll be writing people letters to indicate to them that our records show they may have earned money at the same time, and if they have, we'll of course be asking them to pay that back.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Great. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weiler, you have approximately 30 seconds.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Minister, the scientific research and experimental development program is really important for innovation-oriented stakeholders. I was wondering if you could give us a quick update on the program and where things stand during the pandemic.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Make it a very short answer, please, Minister.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I can tell you that we have a process in place for reviewing research and development applications. We have equipped staff to prepare them to resume service to Canadian companies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will now go to Mr. Aboultaif for four minutes, please.