Government Operations Committee on May 15th, 2020

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

That's great. As you know, we are now talking about reopening the economy in a very methodical, very safe and evidence-based way. When I look at the stockpile, I look at what we need now and what we need as we restart the economy, and also at what we will need when there are discussions of wave two and wave three, and what we will need in the future if there are variations on this. Are we well-positioned for all these phases, and is there anything for us to watch out for?

[Sally Thornton]

I think we are beginning to position. There are a couple of things. First with the Public Health Agency—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Answer as briefly as possible, Ms. Thornton.

[Sally Thornton]

—we are beginning that positioning. We are beginning to estimate what might be required not just in the health sector, but are also working with government partners to look at other areas as economies open. There will be much broader requirements for PPE than just in the health care sector, and there have to be provisions for that. Those discussions are under way.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

In closing I am glad that you are considering sectors other than public health.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Vignola, you have five minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Hello.

My first question is for you, Ms. Thornton and Mr. Dagenais. I would like to come back to the millions of masks that were thrown out when the warehouse in Regina closed, since I'm having a hard time understanding how that could have happened.

I know that your role is to send the provinces what they need at their request. I worked for a number of businesses that had warehouses. When we made a purchase, we had to follow up based on the date of the purchase and the expiry date of the product. We had to make absolutely sure that the product was used before it expired.

Does Canada, your agency, have a plan? If so, why was that plan not followed in the case of those nine million masks?

[Sally Thornton]

First, we do life-cycle inventory management. As products come in, we're very much aware of the expiry dates. In this instance we're talking about the disposal of materials that were in our Regina warehouse. We wound up consolidating our warehouses pursuant to a study.

Our goal is to make sure that we can get distribution to anywhere in Canada within 24 hours. That has changed recently, so we closed some warehouses. As a result, in Regina we wound up disposing of two million expired masks and about 440,000 expired gloves. The masks had been purchased in 2009. The actual expiry date from the manufacturer is five years. Prior to that we often look to see if there is a need or a request for assistance, but usually, by the time things are unused, it's because there is no demand for them at that time.

We waited 10 years before disposing of them. They would be well beyond what the manufacturer's warranty was, and we would have had to test them. Those were destroyed last summer.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I understand that, and that is why I said I understood that it was based on demand.

However, if we see, for example, as in a 2008 distribution plan, that several million masks are set to expire the following year, can we take the initiative to give them to private businesses or the provinces, or to sell them? We are talking here about wasting resources and money.

[Sally Thornton]

They are resources, but we are very concerned with end-user safety, so in these instances we followed the directives, the Treasury Board's directive, on the disposal of surplus material. One of the first things we looked at was if it was needed by other government departments or other levels of government.

We have made donations. We cannot donate materials that are expiring, though. That's because the WHO, for example, will accept donations, but those donated items must still have two good years on their manufacturer's liability.

At that point after the decade, we disposed of them, but we did explore those options.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I will rephrase my question.

Yes, we are talking about money, but materials are needed to make these products. All of that is literally being thrown in the garbage.

Several million masks expired and so no one was able to use them. Can your organization ensure that this type of situation never happens again?

Going forward, could the plan involve giving the masks away before rather than after their expiry date?

[Sally Thornton]

We have an inventory management cycle, but would we never dispose of something?

No, we would dispose of things if they put end-users at risk. Our paramount consideration is the safety of those who receive our products and making sure that we can stand by whatever the guarantee is associated with them.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

If I understand correctly, prevention is not possible. That initiative cannot be taken in advance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Madam Vignola, you have about 15 seconds.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you. Your answers were very enlightening.

I will cede my time to the next speaker.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Green for five minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Thornton noted in her opening remarks that the national emergency strategic stockpile supply evolved from the 2003 SARS outbreak to the 2009 H1N1 outbreak, which necessitated a shift in its role, but then in her further comments, she said that it's the sole provider of certain assets that are required for rare public emergencies.

In 2008, a Senate committee concluded that the previous Conservative government had underfunded and mismanaged our emergency stockpile. The report at the time was provocatively entitled “Emergency Preparedness in Canada: How the fine arts of bafflegab and procrastination hobble the people who will be to save you when things get really bad”.

I heard some of the responses to Ms. Vignola, but I'm unwilling to accept that 20% of what we have in terms of our surge demand.... If understand correctly, there have been 11 million N95 masks purchased to date, and 20% of those were thrown out last year, as reported last month, because they had passed the limit for their use of five years. So you were literally sitting on the stockpile.

To Ms. Thornton, these are not just products. These are literally people's lives, so I'm wondering what is being done. I know that hindsight is 20/20, but what is being done to ensure that the policies and procedures in place, which would have had that stockpile prepared and procured in Regina, is replenished and redistributed in a meaningful way, looking forward to what's going to come and what will likely be the second wave of this?

[Sally Thornton]

If I may just repeat, we do have an inventory management system in place. It deals with the purchase and the expiration, and we look to find good use for product prior to expiration. If it is well after expiration, we would not distribute anything that might impose risk or cause risk to the end-user.

It's interesting, though, on the NESS and its role, to think about it in terms of our overall budget and mandate. The operational budget and mandate for the NESS has been about $3 million a year. Compare that with some of the procurement that we are doing now, which is in the billions, but also the incremental investments that we've made in the NESS over the last 10 years have been for very specific purposes, things like smallpox or Ebola vaccines.

On a go-forward basis, I think we are establishing a good process, not just for the national emergency strategic stockpile, but for a national system whereby we work with provinces and territories, which ultimately are accountable for maintaining stockpiles within their respective jurisdictions, to have greater transparency about what each party has and the burn rate—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, but I can't accept those answers. This is a national scandal. You are claiming there are systems in place, yet the fact is that these systems clearly have failed.

What other warehouses have been shut down, and what other products have been discarded? I ask because the only reason we know about this is because a guy with a waste bin company went down and took pictures.

I need to know what other warehouses have been shut down and how many other products have been discarded.

[Sally Thornton]

In 2012 we had 11 warehouses in 9 cities. After we did the transportation study, we adjusted that so that we could still meet our objective of delivering product anywhere in Canada within 24 hours, and we consolidated 8 warehouses in 6 cities. At that point we closed three warehouses. We don't disclose locations.

The materiel that was destroyed or disposed of at Regina were two million expired masks, which had been purchased in 2009, well past the five-year expiry date, and 440,000 expired gloves.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What about the other facilities that you shut down? What had been discarded from those facilities?

[Sally Thornton]

Materiel that was usable would have been transferred to our existing facilities that have been maintained, and I do not have that information.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Thornton, if you're telling me today that you've used systems and principles in place that have resulted in the discarding of two million masks just in Regina, and that we've closed other warehouses, I'm only to assume that, by the same logic of those decisions in those other locations, other critical PPE was discarded along with the masks. Would that not be a logical assumption?

[Sally Thornton]

Normally we don't disclose what's in the warehouses. This is under our assets and supply, but that could be undertaken—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I can share with you within the seconds left that I do have a motion that I put. It wasn't in order here, but I will be wanting to get to the bottom of this.

When you speak of whole-of-government approaches, Ms. Thornton, it is important to note that this definitely needs to be a whole-of-government approach, because it does feel a lot like a continuation of 2008 and the mismanagement back at that time.