Evidence of meeting #15 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measures.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
We did not study the budgetary impact of the Canada emergency benefit. We have estimated its cost, but we have not studied in detail its disincentive effect on employment or the consequences that could flow from that.
Could you remind me of your second question?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Unfortunately, Mr. Giroux, we're completely out of time. If you do have an answer for that second question, when you recall it, please submit the answer in writing to our clerk as soon as you can.
We'll now go to our final two-minute intervention.
Go ahead, Mr. Green.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
On May 4, 2020, in response to a question from a member, an official from the Department of Finance told the committee:
...infrastructure is one of the tried and tested stimulus levers. At an appropriate time we would be turning our minds to such things that have worked in the past to stimulate the economy, but we really still need to see our way through the current stabilization and restart activities.
Then on May 12, the PBO told the finance committee that “the government should seriously consider productivity-enhancing stimulus measures as opposed to pure spending, which doesn't lead to greater well-being and greater wealth-generating capacity”.
To what extent should the federal government use infrastructure-spending stimulus measures, and when should these fiscal measures and this stimulus spending be implemented?
11:50 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Since saying that on May 12, I've looked at the numbers a bit more. It seems that construction and infrastructure spending in general was obviously not directed at the most affected sector of the economy. While it would be helpful to stimulate the economy, I'm not convinced that it would be the best way to stimulate the economy, because it's not the sector that was affected the most.
In my humble opinion as a taxpayer, stimulating sectors that have been the most deeply affected by COVID-19 might be a better way to stimulate the economy, and infrastructure and construction were not the most affected sectors.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
With significant impacts to the hospitality and service sectors, which generally pay lower wages, is this affecting women more than men?
11:55 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
That's also something that my 21-year-old daughter has pointed out to me. Women have been disproportionately affected by this COVID-19, and efforts for recovery should clearly keep that in mind.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
In recognizing that, does that also extend to racialized communities?
11:55 a.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
That's also a good point, but it's not something I've looked into personally.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Giroux, thank you so much for being with us today. As always, your answers have been insightful and informative.
Colleagues, I will excuse Mr. Giroux at this point in time.
We will suspend for just a couple of moments while we prepare for our next round of witnesses.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
We are reconvened, colleagues.
Madam Hogan, I understand you have an opening statement of five minutes or less. The floor is yours.
May 29th, 2020 / 11:55 a.m.
Karen Hogan Assistant Auditor General and Auditor General of Canada Nominee, Office of the Auditor General
Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting us to discuss the role of the Auditor General in examining the government’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
With me today is Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general and interim commissioner of the environment and sustainable development.
I'll give you some background. The Office of the Auditor General of Canada has received three requests for audits from the House of Commons since Parliament resumed in January. We have informed the Speaker of the House that we will do these three audits.
First, on January 29, the House of Commons adopted a motion calling on our office to conduct an audit of the government’s Investing in Canada plan and to report our findings no later than one year following the adoption of the motion.
Then, on March 13, an order made by the House of Commons called on our office to conduct an audit of special warrants issued under the Financial Administration Act and to report our findings no later than June 1, 2021. We understand that no special warrants have been issued to date.
Lastly, on April 11, the House of Commons adopted a motion requesting that we conduct an audit of the COVID-19 emergency response taken by the government and report our findings no later than June 1, 2021. That order also called on the government to take the measures necessary to ensure that our office has sufficient resources to conduct the work that it has been asked to do by the House of Commons.
We have been monitoring the initiatives that the government has been introducing to respond to the pandemic, including the spending related to protecting health and safety, support for individuals and businesses, and other liquidity support and capital relief.
We also believe that it is important to consider elements of emergency preparedness and early response actions. This may allow us to identify good practices and areas for improvement in case there is a future wave of this pandemic, or to be ready for a future pandemic that may arise.
We welcome any input that this committee may have on areas we could examine as part of our COVID-19 audit work.
On April 28, we informed the Speaker of the House that we are prioritizing COVID-19 audit work and the audit of the Investing in Canada plan. Given the nature and extent of the work that we believe is required to conduct these audits, and in light of our limited resources, we had to revisit the timing for completing and reporting on the other performance audit work that we had planned.
On that basis, we informed the Speaker of the House that we have had to delay all other performance audit work that is not related to the motions adopted by the House of Commons.
Of course, decisions to postpone planned audit work are difficult to make because the topics we select for our performance audits are important to parliamentarians and Canadians. However, our limited resources have prevented us from conducting some of that important work. Now that we need to postpone this work further, we don’t know when we will be able to get to it.
As a final point, I wish to emphasize that we are fully aware that many departments and agencies are on the front line, and they are devoting tremendous amounts of time and resources to responding to the COVID-19 pandemic. We are mindful of their operational realities. We have been coordinating with senior public servants to minimize the risk that our audit work could divert their attention away from the support and services that they need to provide to Canadians.
In these challenging times, I want to acknowledge the commitment and engagement of Canadians as they deal with this pandemic, including members of the federal public service and our office’s staff.
We are ready to answer any questions the committee may have.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Colleagues, since we've gained a little time, we'll go back to our original six-minute rounds of questions, starting with Mrs. Block.
Noon
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I would like to welcome our witnesses who have joined us today.
I want to start by congratulating you, Ms. Hogan, on your appointment to the position of Auditor General of Canada. It's very important work that you and your office do, and we appreciate your taking the time to join us today.
Many of my questions result from the testimony that you provided in the exchange you had with my colleague Mr. Pat Kelly at the public accounts committee recently.
I will turn to one of the quotes from an answer that you gave. You stated, “We will do our best, and I commit to getting information to Parliament as quickly as we can so we can begin to see if they were any lessons learned or changes we can make to better prepare ourselves and the government should we have to go through this again.” I know you stated that in your opening remarks today.
My first observation and question would be this. To mitigate the effectiveness of the opposition, the Liberal government, with the help of the NDP, have effectively shut down Parliament until the fall, and it appears to me that the Liberal government is also trying to mitigate the effectiveness of the Auditor General's Office by limiting your office's funding. Regarding the funding shortfall for your office, my colleague Mr. Kelly noted that it is normal for the office to produce eight or nine reports, not the four that you currently have ready to table.
What topics were not audited this past winter or spring? More specifically, what were the top four or five areas that were left unaudited due to your office's lack of funding?
12:05 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General and Auditor General of Canada Nominee, Office of the Auditor General
Thank you very much for that question.
Unfortunately, given I'm still completing the procedural steps to finalize my nomination and getting up to speed on all of our audit work, I don't have the specifics of what we would have not done last year. Perhaps my colleague Andrew would know that, but I do know that we have, as I mentioned, four reports ready to go, three under the banner of the Auditor General and one under the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development.
I'll see if Andrew knows what we may have cancelled in that past year.
12:05 p.m.
Andrew Hayes Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Definitely the two most significant audits we had on track to audit in the past year, which had to be delayed, were an audit of cybersecurity and an audit of protecting Canada's north.
We mentioned both of those audits to the public accounts committee last June when we were appearing before that committee to discuss our findings.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you for that answer.
It would have been a very timely audit when you consider where we are today and our dependence on the Internet and doing work virtually.
In the exchange with Mr. Kelly—
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Mrs. Block, can I just interrupt briefly? For the benefit of our technicians, could you move your microphone down just about an inch? You were coming across with a little fuzzy sound for our technicians.
Please go ahead. You haven't been docked any time.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Okay.
I just observed that it would have been a very timely audit, given where we are today and how we're conducting our business, and even the fact that we met with the witnesses we met with on Friday.
Ms. Hogan, in the exchange with Mr. Kelly, you mentioned that the Auditor General's Office would soon be turning its attention to two very important matters, which are auditing Investing in Canada and the government's COVID-19 spending.
When was the last time an audit of Investing in Canada was conducted?
12:05 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General and Auditor General of Canada Nominee, Office of the Auditor General
I believe the Investing in Canada plan is a rather new plan, so this would likely be our first time.
I know that many of our audits in the past have focused on significant spending. Typically those are large projects that we would have turned our attention to because of the importance they would have to Canadians and to services that are provided to them.
Perhaps Mr. Hayes, again, would have some history on all of that. You can imagine that the breadth of our work is tremendous, and I don't know of a very specific one in the recent past.
Andrew, do you have something that you can add that's a little more informative than my response?
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General and Interim Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
In terms of infrastructure, we did do an audit of sustainable infrastructure in the community context in, I believe, 2017.
We've also, of course, done infrastructure audits over the years. I would say that the economic action plan work we did in 2010-11 would have been our most significant infrastructure work.
